More questions about doubling on tubas

[Alex]

OK, I've read a few threads about doubling on Tuba. I'm pretty Tuba dumb, but I know a few things, like there are different sizes - F, Eb, CC, BBb. I'm a euph player these days. Moved from being mostly a bass bone player. So please chime in on some equipment questions:

1. What size/brand tuba do you doublers play? I'm thinking of both concert band and brass quintet playing. Adams makes a doubler's euphonium. Does any brand make a doubler's tuba?
2. What size mouthpiece? I play a Wick 4AL on euph. I've seen where doublers use a Wick 3?
3. Doublers want a decent instrument - not a student model, nor a pro model. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

[ghmerrill]

OK, I've read a few threads about doubling on Tuba. I'm pretty Tuba dumb, but I know a few things, like there are different sizes - F, Eb, CC, BBb. I'm a euph player these days. Moved from being mostly a bass bone player. So please chime in on some equipment questions:

I have played (do play) tuba (primarily), bass trombone (secondarily), and euphonium (???). I'm currently devoting all my attention towards getting "reasonably good" on euph before my shelf life expires.

1. What size/brand tuba do you doublers play? I'm thinking of both concert band and brass quintet playing. Adams makes a doubler's euphonium. Does any brand make a doubler's tuba?

Brand? Depends on what you decide to play, how much money you have, and what's available. See my signature for what I've been playing over the the past ten years.

2. What size mouthpiece? I play a Wick 4AL on euph. I've seen where doublers use a Wick 3?

This question doesn't make a lot of sense. It depends on you and the horn. For my current (primary) Wessex (Besson 981 clone) compensating Eb, I use Wick because that's what's best for me and that horn -- basically it was made for the horn. I usually have the 3XL in it because over the entire range (FOR ME) that is best. But for contrabass register intensive pieces I may stick the 2XL in it since that works better under those circumstances (FOR ME).

For my 1924 Buescher Eb 3-valve, I have found that a Kelly 25 or Bach 25 works best. I like the Kelly because I like plastic rims. This mouthpiece would be dreadful (at least FOR ME) on the big compensating Eb or for the BBb horn I used to play.

On full-size BBb horns I have used a variety of mouthpieces, including a couple of Perantuccis and Schilkes. I CANNOT use the extremely popular Conn 120S -- it seems to simply suck the air out of me. My absolutely all-time go-to mouthpiece that I know will work to some degree on any tuba for me is the Schilke 66. It's a "smaller" Helleburg. That doesn't mean that any of these will work for you. It will take time to figure out what will. Start with a Bach/Kelly 25, learn to play, and then figure out where to go from there. The 25 won't overwhelm you in size, and it will be reasonable. DO NOT go in the direction of a 24AW.

I cannot see myself ever using any Wick on an American or German style BBb tuba.

3. Doublers want a decent instrument - not a student model, nor a pro model. Any suggestions?

Wessex, Mack Brass, ... ??? Or even Jim Laabs (Schiller) if you feel adverturesome. Or find something used that will work for you.

From the vibes I'm getting from your query and remarks ... if I were you, I'd look for a smallish 3-valve BBb horn, stick a Kelly/Bach 25 in it, and start playing. An old Yamaha, Olds, Eastman, King, Dillon. Take a look at Dillon used tubas. I have no idea of how much you're interested in spending or how you'd come up with the money, but in your position I'd be cautious about spending much on a "first tuba". Just my 2 cents.

[Alex]

I have played (do play) tuba (primarily), bass trombone (secondarily), and euphonium (???). I'm currently devoting all my attention towards getting "reasonably good" on euph before my shelf life expires.


Brand? Depends on what you decide to play, how much money you have, and what's available. See my signature for what I've been playing over the the past ten years.



This question doesn't make a lot of sense. It depends on you and the horn. For my current (primary) Wessex (Besson 981 clone) compensating Eb, I use Wick because that's what's best for me and that horn -- basically it was made for the horn. I usually have the 3XL in it because over the entire range (FOR ME) that is best. But for contrabass register intensive pieces I may stick the 2XL in it since that works better under those circumstances (FOR ME).

For my 1924 Buescher Eb 3-valve, I have found that a Kelly 25 or Bach 25 works best. I like the Kelly because I like plastic rims. This mouthpiece would be dreadful (at least FOR ME) on the big compensating Eb or for the BBb horn I used to play.

On full-size BBb horns I have used a variety of mouthpieces, including a couple of Perantuccis and Schilkes. I CANNOT use the extremely popular Conn 120S -- it seems to simply suck the air out of me. My absolutely all-time go-to mouthpiece that I know will work to some degree on any tuba for me is the Schilke 66. It's a "smaller" Helleburg. That doesn't mean that any of these will work for you. It will take time to figure out what will. Start with a Bach/Kelly 25, learn to play, and then figure out where to go from there. The 25 won't overwhelm you in size, and it will be reasonable. DO NOT go in the direction of a 24AW.

I cannot see myself ever using any Wick on an American or German style BBb tuba.



Wessex, Mack Brass, ... ??? Or even Jim Laabs (Schiller) if you feel adverturesome. Or find something used that will work for you.

From the vibes I'm getting from your query and remarks ... if I were you, I'd look for a smallish 3-valve BBb horn, stick a Kelly/Bach 25 in it, and start playing. An old Yamaha, Olds, Eastman, King, Dillon. Take a look at Dillon used tubas. I have no idea of how much you're interested in spending or how you'd come up with the money, but in your position, I'd be cautious about spending much on a "first tuba". Just my 2 cents.

Thank you for all the great information. I ask very general open-ended questions because I'm looking for a general direction of what to consider. as to size of Tuba and what a good starter-sized mouthpiece is for someone who mainly plays euph. I plan on looking at used, of course, and go from there. Since F tuba is regarded as a bigger euph (??), I thought, OK, I can use that for everything Tuba, but I have read in other threads that that's not a good way to go. Then OK, maybe Eb? Down a 5th in reading, from bass cleff euph, but maybe a better choice than F. But you have stated to go with a BBflat. OK. I appreciate your thought in your post! You have helped and sorry I wasn't more specific.

[ghmerrill]

You want to stay away from F tubas. An F tuba is not a "bigger euph". And you can't get a decent one that isn't quite expensive. They are renowned for having challenging intonation issues.

To cover a reasonable range of band and small ensemble applications, a small (i.e., smaller bore) BBb would be the best choice for you. The fingerings will be more familiar (which will help initially), and even with a 3-valve BBb you'll be able to handle the entire range you're likely to encounter. When I had my 4-valve rotary Cerveny BBb, I ended up venting the 1st valve slide so I could tune dynamically as I played and almost never used the 4th valve. You don't NEED a 4-th valve on a BBb tuba unless you're doing some fairly demanding or unusual (or particularly orchestral) stuff.

"Down a 5th in reading?" Not sure what you mean by that. You are aware, I hope, that aside from playing in a British brass band (where the tubas play as transposing instruments in treble clef), any tuba will be playing as a non-transposing instrument in bass clef? So from that perspective, the BBb, CC, Eb, and F tubas all have "different fingerings." And in any event you couldn't (at least shouldn't) use an F tuba for an "everything tuba."

While I love larger bore compensating Eb tubas, and you (and the Brits) can wring a lot out of them ... when the chips were down, in orchestral situations even the legendary John Fletcher switched to a large bore CC.

An F tuba doesn't have the range or -- even with 5-6 valves -- the "gravitas" you will need in some situations. A small/medium bore BBb horn will be the most versatile for you, and almost certainly the most economical to get.

[ghmerrill]

Also, if you're looking for a tuba to buy, you do know about the Tuba Forum, right?

https://www.tubaforum.net/

[Alex]

Also, if you're looking for a tuba to buy, you do know about the Tuba Forum, right?

https://www.tubaforum.net/

Yup - I do know about the Tuba forum but haven't ventured there yet.. So there are different bore sizes for tubas too!? I have 3 different sizes of trombones - the right tool for the right job, as they say. I didn't know tubas came in different bore sizes too. Well it makes sense to get a small bore BBb. Thank you very much. I think I am now headed in the right direction. Thank you again.

[iMav]

I am shamed by the few "professional" tuba players I know.

Hard to feel good about myself being able to read TC (I occasionally pick up my trumpet) when a pro tuba player is expected to be literate with fingerings on BBb, CC, Eb, and F tubas.

[Alex]

I transpose. Don't want to learn "new fingerings." When I'm handed a euph treble clef part I read it as tenor clef and add 2 flats, Started as a bone player I was taught to read tenor and alto clef too. I didn't learn "new slide positions." I learned where C was on the staff and went from there. The brain eventually clicks in and it becomes automatic with repetition, like anything else.

[iMav]

I transpose. Don't want to learn "new fingerings." When I'm handed a euph treble clef part I read it as tenor clef and add 2 flats, Started as a bone player I was taught to read tenor and alto clef too. I didn't learn "new slide positions." I learned where C was on the staff and went from there. The brain eventually clicks in and it becomes automatic with repetition, like anything else.

Once things click, you are neither transposing nor referencing alternate fingering “on the fly”.

[ghmerrill]

Once things click, you are neither transposing nor referencing alternate fingering “on the fly”.

Yes, exactly. Transposing is in itself an intermediate action independent of the seeing-to-doing action as you read and play music. It is, in itself, a separate skill (which I don't have).

When I play any of my instruments, I just play, and don't "think" about the fingerings -- unless I have to think about an alternative fingering or something like that. To change from BBb tuba to Eb tuba to euph is much like just flipping a switch ("Eb tuba now") -- not really unlike flipping the switch between valve combinations and slide positions. Likewise, if I were to pick up a flute or saxophone (both of which I played for some years), I would simply play it and not be confused by fingerings I might use on a euphonium. The more different the instrument, the easier it is not to "transfer" fingerings. But for me, it depends on what I think of as the "gestalt" of the instrument as it sits in my hands. That's the "switch".