More questions about doubling on tubas

[massmanute]

I am getting closer (maybe) to buying a tuba for doubling, with my primary instrument to remain euphonium.

I am leaning toward a Eb 3+1 valve compensating euphonium. I see that Wessex has several models. They have good prices, but they are nevertheless out of my price range. Jim Laabs has a couple of models at low prices, but I see a lot of complaints about that company.

I got a quote from a Chinese company that offers two models for direct import (four models if you count lacquer vs. silver finish). The photos look identical to the two instruments offered by Jim Laabs, but the price is somewhat lower for the direct import. However, I don't have a quote for the shipping cost yet for the direct import. However, I think the shipping cost for Jim Laabs is something like $200, so the shipping cost might end up being a wash between Jim Laabs and the Chinese company.

Commenting on the fact that the photos look the same as the two instruments offered by Jim Laabs, please have a look at the two attached photos from the Chinese supplier. Note the different positions of the lead pipe.

Although not evident in the photos, the bore of the instrument with the higher lead pipe is about 1mm larger than the bore of the other instrument. (17.5mm vs. 18/19mm.) The larger bore instrument is also quoted at almost a $700 dollar higher price.

Any comments, other than the usual ones about the risks of directly importing from China. (Let's take that risk as a given.)

I assume that these instruments are more or less clones of instruments from established makers. Are there any guesses about which instruments might have served as the inspirations for the two Chinese instruments?

[ghmerrill]

I am getting closer (maybe) to buying a tuba for doubling, with my primary
Commenting on the fact that the photos look the same as the two instruments offered by Jim Laabs, please have a look at the two attached photos from the Chinese supplier. Note the different positions of the lead pipe.

Good catch -- and very important. See below.

Although not evident in the photos, the bore of the instrument with the higher lead pipe is about 1mm larger than the bore of the other instrument. (17.5mm vs. 18/19mm.) The larger bore instrument is also quoted at almost a $700 dollar higher price.

I don't know what to say about this -- or how you could determine what it means or even how accurate it is. Often advertisements for these things suffer from various kinds of errors. If you can communicate with the seller, you might press them for details. Otherwise, my Wessex horn has been great for me.

Any comments, other than the usual ones about the risks of directly importing from China. (Let's take that risk as a given.)

People have done it. Not so much nowadays since similar deals (or "close enough") can often be had through sources about which you have more information and in which you have more confidence. I don't think that I'd order directly from some source in China.

I assume that these instruments are more or less clones of instruments from established makers. Are there any guesses about which instruments might have served as the inspirations for the two Chinese instruments?

The Besson models on which these are based are well known. In fact, they are often mentioned in advertisements. Take a look at the Besson site's Besson 982 Sovereign Eb Tuba page.

The lead pipe is a significant issue -- and which one you want depends mostly on how tall you are. If you get the one with the low leadpipe and you're tall, then you'll always be scrunching down to it (which will be -- literally -- painful). Or else you'll need to use some kind of stand or support. On the other hand, if you get the high one and you're not tall, the you'll have trouble being comfortable always reaching up to it. I'm 6'2" (or somewhat shorter now from old age shrinkage) and so I was careful to get the Wessex that has the higher leadpipe.

On the other hand, I STRONGLY recommend the use of a tuba stand (to just about anyone). I made my own "sit on" tuba stand, but various commercial stands are available. Or you can just try a cushion in your lap. But you'll probably need something. Almost everyone does, no matter what the tuba or their height. Holding and playing one of the Eb Besson-clone compensating tubas takes a bit of getting used to. You'll have to get used to the angle at which you hold it, and get the height adjusted to your own requirement. On the other hand, I have to say that I LOVE my Wessex Champion. Superb intonation, it's "set it and forget it" in terms of tuning and slide position, and it really pitches the (classic British tuba) sound. You can see in my signature the mouthpieces I use on it. It will NOT (in my opinion) as a single tuba fully support a decently sized (e.g. 45+ piece) concert band. But it's a kick to try. And otherwise it's just a lot of fun since it really covers the high range above the staff and can handle the contrabass range below the staff (though not like a big BBb can). Also wonderful in smaller ensembles like quintets. For many years I played a Cerveny 781 full size BBb classic Czech/German horn and loved it. It ain't one of those. But I gave it up for the 981 clone (high pipe) Wessex clone because I just have more fun with the big Eb.

Re Laabs. I've never had a problem with them. This includes my bass trombone and (within the past week) getting some extra parts from them to do a kind of goofy mod I want to try. But others have had different experiences.

Oh, one other thing -- especially with an eye towards "doubling": If you go in the Wessex direction, you might think about getting one of the models with the smaller bell -- or a slightly different smaller Eb mode. That big 19" bell is a bit hard to horse around, and a model with a smaller bell might provide a bit more utility to you. My only regret about my Champion is the big bell. I know what it brings, but over time I think it would have been better to have one of the smaller bell models. Just something to think about. It may depend to some degree on whether you see yourself mostly playing in large (band, orchestra) ensembles or smaller (quintet, brass choir, etc.) ensembles.

[massmanute]

Good catch -- and very important. See below.


I don't know what to say about this -- or how you could determine what it means or even how accurate it is. Often advertisements for these things suffer from various kinds of errors. If you can communicate with the seller, you might press them for details. Otherwise, my Wessex horn has been great for me.


People have done it. Not so much nowadays since similar deals (or "close enough") can often be had through sources about which you have more information and in which you have more confidence. I don't think that I'd order directly from some source in China.


The Besson models on which these are based are well known. In fact, they are often mentioned in advertisements. Take a look at the Besson site's Besson 982 Sovereign Eb Tuba page.

The lead pipe is a significant issue -- and which one you want depends mostly on how tall you are. If you get the one with the low leadpipe and you're tall, then you'll always be scrunching down to it (which will be -- literally -- painful). Or else you'll need to use some kind of stand or support. On the other hand, if you get the high one and you're not tall, the you'll have trouble being comfortable always reaching up to it. I'm 6'2" (or somewhat shorter now from old age shrinkage) and so I was careful to get the Wessex that has the higher leadpipe.

On the other hand, I STRONGLY recommend the use of a tuba stand (to just about anyone). I made my own "sit on" tuba stand, but various commercial stands are available. Or you can just try a cushion in your lap. But you'll probably need something. Almost everyone does, no matter what the tuba or their height. Holding and playing one of the Eb Besson-clone compensating tubas takes a bit of getting used to. You'll have to get used to the angle at which you hold it, and get the height adjusted to your own requirement. On the other hand, I have to say that I LOVE my Wessex Champion. Superb intonation, it's "set it and forget it" in terms of tuning and slide position, and it really pitches the (classic British tuba) sound. You can see in my signature the mouthpieces I use on it. It will NOT (in my opinion) as a single tuba fully support a decently sized (e.g. 45+ piece) concert band. But it's a kick to try. And otherwise it's just a lot of fun since it really covers the high range above the staff and can handle the contrabass range below the staff (though not like a big BBb can). Also wonderful in smaller ensembles like quintets. For many years I played a Cerveny 781 full size BBb classic Czech/German horn and loved it. It ain't one of those. But I gave it up for the 981 clone (high pipe) Wessex clone because I just have more fun with the big Eb.

Re Laabs. I've never had a problem with them. This includes my bass trombone and (within the past week) getting some extra parts from them to do a kind of goofy mod I want to try. But others have had different experiences.

Oh, one other thing -- especially with an eye towards "doubling": If you go in the Wessex direction, you might think about getting one of the models with the smaller bell -- or a slightly different smaller Eb mode. That big 19" bell is a bit hard to horse around, and a model with a smaller bell might provide a bit more utility to you. My only regret about my Champion is the big bell. I know what it brings, but over time I think it would have been better to have one of the smaller bell models. Just something to think about. It may depend to some degree on whether you see yourself mostly playing in large (band, orchestra) ensembles or smaller (quintet, brass choir, etc.) ensembles.

Great input. Thanks.

I'm not tall, a little on the short side (about 5' 7"), so possibly the low lead pipe might work for me. I did a rough calculation, based on the scaling and measurements on the photos, and I estimate that the low lead pipe is about 2.5" lower than the high lead pipe.

Excellent information about using a tuba stand. This seems especially relevant to me because I had back surgery last month, and I am still in the recovery stage. Luckily, early indications are that the surgery was successful, which is not always the case with back surgery.

The bell sizes of the two Chinese instruments are both listed as being about 19".

For ensemble sizes, I have played (euphonium) in a relatively small community band a couple of times and (euphonium) in a local university band that is quite a bit larger. The number of tubas in these bands varied rather wildly, usually 1 (sometimes 2) in the community band and for the university band the number ranged from zero during one semester up to about 5 in the other semester. I suspect that if I were to play tuba in either of those bands in the future there would usually be at least one other tuba player, so I would not have to hold up the base line all by myself.

I would also like to find a way to play in a traditional jazz band, which would mean a small group, though I might not be good enough to hold my own, music wise, in that setting, particularly since I would probably be the only tuba in the group.

Of course, there's always Tuba Christmas, and I could play either tuba or euphonium for that event.

[ghmerrill]

Great input. Thanks.

I'm not tall, a little on the short side (about 5' 7"), so possibly the low lead pipe might work for me. I did a rough calculation, based on the scaling and measurements on the photos, and I estimate that the low lead pipe is about 2.5" lower than the high lead pipe.

You can always have the leadpipe moved or replaced if it proves to be a problem. Over the years I have moved strongly to a "fit the instrument to you, and not you to the instrument" approach.

Excellent information about using a tuba stand. This seems especially relevant to me because I had back surgery last month, and I am still in the recovery stage. Luckily, early indications are that the surgery was successful, which is not always the case with back surgery.

Once I made my stand, I wondered why I hadn't done it years earlier. It eliminated all the little irritations of wrestling with the instrument (and put it in a kind of "weight neutral" position) instead of playing it.

I also have had back surgery (lumbar -- best surgery I've ever had; "non-invasive"; great surgeon), and that's another good reason for trying to find a lighter tuba if you can. If you can afford it, the Wessex Bombino might be an excellent choice. I sometimes think of selling my Champion and getting one of those, but I'm just not playing tuba much lately. The Bombino won't pitch as much volume as a full-size 981/clone, but it's more versatile, easier to carry, easier to get in and out of vehicles. Think of it as buying an easier life.

The bell sizes of the two Chinese instruments are both listed as being about 19".

Clones of the same Besson.

I would also like to find a way to play in a traditional jazz band, which would mean a small group, though I might not be good enough to hold my own, music wise, in that setting, particularly since I would probably be the only tuba in the group.

I think a smaller horn like the Bombino would be good for that. Another thing you might consider is see if you can find (Tubenet "for sale" or local to you) an old American/German/British smaller non-comp horn. Even a 3-valve can be a lot of fun to play -- and you get to explore the dark world of "ghost tones" for the contrabass register.

[DaveBj]

With regard to buying directly from a Chinese exporter, I can offer only my own experience, for what it's worth. I bought my 3-valve compensating baritone from a Chinese exporter. On the up-side, the price was great. On the down-side, the trip to my front porch took 45 days, but I was expecting that. The horn itself was quite acceptable; it served me well through several years of brass banding. Overall, I would rate the experience very positively. Like everything else in this life, your mileage may vary.