Thoughts About the Value of Specialized Instrument Dealers in the USA

[davewerden]

This subject evolved from some previous conversations about Thomann compared to USA dealers who maintain a stock of instruments and have knowledgeable employees to help customers. (There are no doubt similar comparisons for foreign brick & mortar instrument stores.)

I'm going to be verbose here, but this is no criticism of Larry, the OP. I'm very glad he will be able to get an Adams! He was/is simply sharing enthusiastically a good experience he had. But I want to fill out my thoughts a bit on Thomann vs. USA dealers.

To some extent I can understand how full-service dealers might be frustrated with a service like Thomann (not sure how many others are like them). Simply put, a full-service dealer can't compete with Thomann on price. I've done a bit of research and it seems Thomann is like a large call center service with a very large warehouse, which is capable of low-touch shipping of thousands of pieces per day. That has enabled them to take extremely low markup on even large-ticket items. Apparently their customer service is quite good, so they have found a business model that works for them.

I have mentioned the benefits of having a healthy dealer network in the USA and why I try to use practices that support the belief. One can go to a dealer and try out horns, or can often order them on approval for trial. Obvious, right? But dealers also enable us to try a wide variety of instruments at various regional/national/international conferences.

Looking at the last 3 ITEC conferences I attended in 2019 - 2022, one local, one international, and one regional, there have been horns on display to play or purchase, as well as medium-ticket items like gig bags and smaller items, some of which often turn out to be "news to me." But back to horns.

At the local conference in 2019, Schmitt Music was there with the Adams line. The horns were shipped to their store to prep for the show. Then Schmitt had to get the horns to the show, set up the booth, prep the horns, and generally be there for the whole event. When done, any horn that did not sell was packed up by Schmitt and shipped out to the next event in Iowa City.

At the 2019 international, Sterling was there ONLY because Baltimore Brass brought them (along with some used horns of interest, and other new brands, including Adams). That dealer very nearly went under this year, but they were able to regroup and are now healthy. BB is a great dealership, run by fine people, and their loss would have hurt all of us, indirectly at least. If they start losing sales to companies that mostly sell/ship through the internet, can they stick around?

At the regional conference in Des Moines in May, Eastman euphoniums (and tubas) were there ONLY because a dealer brought them (Eastman was also going to attend, but their truck broke down!). Adams was there ONLY because a dealer, The Brass Stop, brought their own stock of horns.

Larry mentioned Schmitt not having an Adams to try for quite a while yet. The fact that they are beginning to carry horns like an Adams compensating euphonium is progress for them, and I hope they can keep going strong. Part of the issue right now may be because their main store (which is where I found an Adams E1 in stock a while back) is moving from the North side of the Twin Cities to the South side. When I visit Schmitt I almost always learn something from talking to their employees, and I sometimes learn about a new product I did not know about. [UPDATE: as mentioned in another recent post, Schmitt now has a robust selection of top-grade compensating euphoniums, including Adams, Eastman, Shires, Besson, and Yamaha. This is somewhat new for them, and I'm really hoping it is successful. I'm not sure if they can sustain that kind of selection if they lose even a few sales to Thomann.]


Other:
In the past, when Custom Music was under its original ownership, one could try Hirsbrunner and Sterling ONLY because Custom came to the conferences. (I'm not sure what they are doing these days - they are under new ownership after their founder died.)

AND the Army Band Conference, as of my last visit anyway, also relies greatly on dealers to fill up the elephant room with tubas and euphoniums.

AND at the low brass workshop I just attended in Arkansas (UCA, Gail Robertson's school), I met another very fine dealer (Houghton Horns) who brought horns and accessories. He had Adams and Shires, and he introduced me to the new oil I've been testing and am now excited about. As is usually the case at such events, there were MANY mouthpieces for one to try, which is an experience difficult to duplicate via internet shopping.

AND going to the Wayback Machine to recall some public school memories:

• I recall the first chance I had to blow on a Besson euphonium was at a state conference while I was in high school. A dealer had a robust display which included a 4-valve compensating Besson.
• My home town had a couple good music stores. In one, I got some advice from a clerk who was also one of the brass teachers. He gave me a little tip that I found valuable and still use sometimes today.
• In junior high the janitor came in to clean a practice room when I had left for a few minutes. He knocked my horn off the chair and bent the leadpipe severely. I was able to take it downtown to the dealer and he did a very good job in his tiny shop of fixing it.

The small/medium/large tuba-euphonium events such as I described are invaluable for players to try horns and compare different brands in one location. Often on this forum it has been suggested that someone looking to compare horns make their way to one of these events. So dealers, who support such events in various ways, do more for our community than just provide local convenience. I suspect that if I had not found Adams at an ITEC, I would not have gone to the effort of getting one to try out; I was quite happy with my Sterling.

Attached is a map of the Adams dealers in the USA. The network has grown considerably since I first started looking at Adams 10 years ago. Nice to see it growing, and I would not want to see that reversed. (The California dealer I mentioned above is no longer in business, but fortunately there are a few other Adams dealers now in CA.)

Another hidden factor is that some of the dealers have given input to Adams to help improve the breed. Adams listens to customer feedback, of course, but dealers can present consolidated feedback, which carries more weight. Dealers have experts on hand who can help find issues themselves, and help customers to work through their issues. And dealers are likely to only present desires that are reasonable, whereas direct customer feedback has to be taken with a grain of salt.

So there you have what is on my mind. Each person has to decide what their "shopping policies" are. (I think we ALL agree that one should not try out horns at a standard dealer and then buy elsewhere.) I'm not ignoring the fact that money doesn't grow on trees for us players. Of course, the same is true for dealers.

FWIW, if Thomann approached me to support the forum with banner ads, I would not accept them. I'm not very industrious about approaching companies for ads, but I only allow ads from companies that have a track record of providing genuine value to the euphonium-tuba world. Thomann surely offers dandy pricing, but I fear such a business model is not in our long-term best interests. And Thomann's buying power and low overhead means they can sell instruments literally below what a USA store can offer.

Those are my thoughts. I'm suppose not just being a "nice guy" in trying to support the dealers - I really think this is important for our world of music.

[iMav]

While not put down in a cohesive statement like you’ve done here, I think you (and others) have expressed much of this over the course of my purchasing journey…not only with the Adams purchase through Thomann, but other purchases as well (near-dealer pricing on John Packer horns through an eBay reseller and the rock bottom Jinbao horn prices through Music Store (also based in Germany like Thomann)).

And, honestly, I don’t disagree with your points. My stance is that customers should be sold on the value of the local resellers…as opposed to lies being told about the low-cost options (like WWBW tends to do).

I’ve talked with several people who rave about the personalized service they have received from local retailers. And I have ALSO been able to provide info on low cost options for folks who, otherwise, could not afford the horn they eventually purchased. ($650ish for a horn indistinguishable from a Mack Brass/Schiller/etc, for instance). A Schmitt or Dillon was never going to get their money, as they couldn’t afford those other offerings.

As a veteran, I also have thought about more USA made(ish) options. Shires horns are competitive to even Thomann pricing…and can be had through those same retailers we want to support. I actually have been looking to pick one up. And, with an offered discount was about to pull the trigger…but ran into some hard feelings. Investigating other options right now.

BTW, not only did my purchase adventures yield good intel, I was also able to pass three horns on to others at significant savings to them (and will likely be doing so again with at least one more).

Bottom line, I think the topic is much more nuanced than the hard line some are drawing (not you Dave).

[daruby]

I want to second Dave Werdens discussion. I have been aware of the ongoing underlying issue of Thomann vs. local (USA based) dealers since Larry first started writing about them earlier last year. I am familiar with this distribution problem from my days in high tech (1974-2000) where many, if not most of the companies I worked for sold and supported products through local resellers. The "intrusion" of a large multi-national reseller into a local territory creates channel conflict that is difficult to resolve.

For myself, the path to new instruments over the last 15+ years has largely been a hybrid of the model Dave describes and the one Larry has taken with Thomann.

1. I have purchased all of my new horns through local (USA) dealers. Custom Music for my Sterling and Austin Custom Brass for the Adams.

2. Because these are "custom" instruments, because I provide a lot of my own self-service, because I have leveraged relationships I have in the business (like Dave Werden), and because I travel to Europe frequently, I have been able to work directly with the factories with the approval of the local dealers for the fulfillment of my orders while I still respect the "business" model set up by the factory and their local distributors.

3. Due to distance, there never was much that Custom Music could do to provide local support and they disappeared from my world sometime ago. Prior to his move to Kansas City, any work I needed done on my Adams was done by ACB here in Massachusetts. However, since the move, I have used Osmun Music for technical support since they have such fine technicians at a distance of just 18 miles from my home. I might note that in most cases, however, I source parts through my own sources due to the customized nature of my horns. I might note that due to poor spare parts support from Besson, I ended up scooping up maintenance and repair parts on my trips even for my "standard" horns.

4. I strongly believe in us having a healthy distribution channel for our instruments here in the U.S. While the Internet and financial tools like Paypal and Venmo make it much easier for us to do direct business as individuals with foreign entities, the erosion of direct sales, marketing, and technical support in-country is a serious issue. If one looks at sales of new Sterling instruments and their availability at trade shows and local shops, it is pretty clear that Sterling has never recovered from their dependence on Custom Music as a single source exclusive USA distributor.

5. For me, the downside of my approach is that it doesn't scale to a larger manufacturer and requires hidden investments that don't show up in the price of the horn. Examples include my travel expenses to the factories in the UK and Netherlands. Also, dealers are generally not as willing to negotiate a deal for a future horn with custom modifications compared with a standard horn they might already have in inventory. It also requires a flexibility and willingness of the factory to work with me and an investment in my time and communication to develop that relationship. Larger manufacturers like Buffett-Besson or Miraphone will do this with professional artists, but not with an amateur like me.

Even though my approach is pretty unique and ends up likely costing me a bit more than shopping for the best price, it works for me and respects the business model set up by the manufacturers and their business partners here in the US.

Doug

[iMav]

Note. When I got pricing for the Adams E3 from Thomann, most everyone responded in disbelief. Buying from a US-based reseller came at a 35% premium (at the time, for that horn) comparatively. (That’s a LOT of money)

The community was largely ignorant of the price-savings available. And at least a few US retailers were proactively lying and disparaging the overseas resellers (not a good look). It also surfaced that more than a few manufacturers engage in price-fixing (which is illegal in EU, which is why they can sell cheaper). I.e. resellers aren’t ALLOWED to sell several brands cheaper…regardless of their margins.

The more educated the consumer is, the better. Then let THEM decide how they want to spend their money.

[davewerden]

Note. When I got pricing for the Adams E3 from Thomann, most everyone responded in disbelief. Buying from a US-based reseller came at a 35% premium (at the time, for that horn) comparatively. (That’s a LOT of money)

The community was largely ignorant of the price-savings available. And at least a few US retailers were proactively lying and disparaging the overseas resellers (not a good look). It also surfaced that more than a few manufacturers engage in price-fixing (which is illegal in EU, which is why they can sell cheaper). I.e. resellers aren’t ALLOWED to sell several brands cheaper…regardless of their margins.

The more educated the consumer is, the better. Then let THEM decide how they want to spend their money.

No doubt education is critical. That is what I was trying to accomplish above. A low price is easy to see. What goes behind a retailer's pricing, whether it is a music store or a woodworking supply company, is much less visible.

[comebackplayer]

I took a course in grad school on globalization and remember thinking it's such a mixed bag: cheaper goods for the working class but depressed wages, greater economic growth but more local volatility, and on and on. I'm sure Covid was tough on stores, and I also can imagine that the old model of rentals and fairly expensive student models has been tough to sustain with the growth of cheaper instruments.

I think it's also a reminder that we as individuals should try to behave ethically. For me, this means things like don't try out an instrument in a store and then order it online, support artists and makers directly when I can, and try to do things in an environmentally responsible way (repair when possible, buy used, etc.). For companies, I want them to be able to have a fair wage and local stores, but I don't like ones who lie or deceive about their manufacturing model and I also don't feel like I have to support resellers/rebranders who don't add much value.

[iMav]

Like I said, it’s nuanced.

For instance…one could argue, US-manufactured horns suffered because we as a community overwhelmingly chose to buy foreign made horns (Netherlands, UK, Germany, Japan, China) over the few horns made here (ex Kanstul).

The current, cheapest way to buy a John Packer is through a retailer that DOES have a physical business in the Madison, Wisconsin area. So, you get BOTH a great deal AND help prop up a local US business.

Again, we shouldn’t be afraid to be open and honest about available options. Transparency is always the best practice IMHO.

Great discussion. Also reminds me of the overt obfuscation around Chinese horns, stencils, etc. in many of these cases, the US resellers set out to knowingly deceive the consumer. (The Schiller brand propped up to deceive while companies like Mack Brass are more open and honest.)

[iMav]

In my defense… I have made major purchases from two US-based retailers (Capital Music Gear and Dillion’s), two international retailers (Thomann Music and Music Store), and have purchased from several trusted community members here.

So, I think I have adequately shared my wealth and my support.