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Thread: ACB/Mack/Wessex

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Summerville (SC)
    Posts
    225
    It will be interesting to discover if Evan's current production unit yields improved tuning over the prototype or early production Sinfonico which David utilized for his original tuning chart.

    Regards, Guido
    Euph - Wessex EP104 Festivo - SM4U, 4AL
    Flugel - Kanstul 1525
    Trpt - Adams A4 LB
    Bb Cornet -Carolbrass CCR-7772R-GSS
    Eb Cornet - Carolbrass CCR-7775-GSS

  2. #32
    Happy that you got the Sinfonico, Evan!! Anxious to hear more about it and a video would be fun as well. That sure is a nice looking horn! I hope you find the intonation good on that horn.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  3. #33
    As video is not mine, I will need to get permissions changed.

    I also recieved the two tuning slides. Depending on what I am playing with, I have used both. Somehow playback on my computer is different. My tuning machines all seem to have different ideas of what is a standard 440, so I need to resolve that too.

    Playing to a drone has shown me a lot about where the tuning is. I find that I am playing on the F side a lot. Having been playing my F Bass Sackbut has made this a much easier process. Gives a good insight into why horn players use one side or the other for their playing as well.
    Wessex Sinfonico Euphonium
    Leuchter Bass Sackbut
    Conn 88H
    Bach 50B3
    Cool Winds Tuba Blue!

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Dawsonville, GA
    Posts
    19
    Ok, getting back with some results. I just spent about 2 hours playing. The second hour I did my best to follow Dave's "Methodology for Evaluating Intonation" (http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.p...n#.YGU5La9KguU).

    I'm using a strobe tuner plugin for PreSonus Studio One. Because of the many different harmonics in play in the tone of a brass instrument, it tends to jump around, even when I try to hold it steady (with my ear, not by watching the "needle"). So, when reading it, I do my best to gauge the "middle" of where it's wavering. It's usually only 4-5 cents of variation once I center the tone on the partial where the tone opens up and the horn sounds most resonant. Edit: Hardware-wise, I'm using a Rode NT-1A condenser microphone running into a Behringer UMC202HD interface and into my recording machine for this test. I played with the bell of the horn about 4 feet from the microphone, with the mic aimed off-axis about 5-10 degrees into the room.

    For this test, I warmed up and played a lot of long tones, worked on some scales and modes-of-scales for a bit, played through the solo part of an arrangement of Erik Satie's "Gymnopedie No. 1" that I did for low brass choir and generally just enjoyed the horn for a bit.

    My method is basically identical to Dave's, I played each note with my eyes closed, bent it up and down at least a quarter tone to find where the instrument FEELS the most resonant and "right," then opened my eyes and looked at the reading. I repeated this at least 5 times for every note, or until it came out consistently in the same spot 2 or 3 times. I focused intensely on fundamentals as well. My posture was good, back straight while sitting on a guitar practice stool, instrument held up by my left hand, mouthpiece centered on my lips, tongue down as far as the pitch allows, jaw dropped similarly to get my oral resonant chamber open and, well.. resonant. Focused on not pressing too hard with the mouthpiece, but keeping it firm and comfortable.

    Following Dave's guide, I used the main tuning slide (and the upper 3rd valve slide in my case) to adjust until 1st partial Bb was in tune. I then checked F# with 2-3 and found it to be dead-on as well. Low B with 1-2-3 was almost a quarter tone flat, and 1-3 C was over 25 cents flat, so I made the decision to just use 2-4 and 4 respectively. That had much better results as one might expect. F using the 4th valve was slightly flat, so I didn't pull that slide at all.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    (pictured: affected tuning slides)

    Once I had these adjustments done, I moved randomly around the pitches on the instrument, taking deep breaths and sighing into the instrument as I played, keeping the breath support as even and perfect as I could, using the methodology above. 5-10 times per note, until I opened my eyes and repeatedly saw the same result. I did my absolute best to NOT let the results influence the way I played the notes, but to look for the natural center of every note on the instrument, where it resonated best. Still, there's likely some amount of subjectivity in this analysis that can't be eliminated. I'm actually kind of surprised my results are as close to Dave's as they are. My results are below on the left with the blue lined graph. Dave's results from the "Prototype" euphonium are on the right with the green lined graph.

    Last edited by EvanWeeks; 04-01-2021 at 03:48 PM.
    Trombone - Andreas Eastmann ETB432G
    Trombone - Buescher 410 Tenor (1926)
    Trumpet - John Packer JP251SW in Frosted Gold
    Euphonium - King 1129SP Marching Euphonium
    Euphonium - Wessex EP600 "Sinfonico"

  5. #35
    Here's today's side quest, a set of drones to play with, made with ProTools and Garritan sounds. One set is String Bass section, one is Tubas. Both have Root, octave, and fifth.

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...1p?usp=sharing
    Wessex Sinfonico Euphonium
    Leuchter Bass Sackbut
    Conn 88H
    Bach 50B3
    Cool Winds Tuba Blue!

  6. #36
    Interesting findings, Evan. On your G3, if you play that 3rd valve instead of 1-2, I think it will bring it down. I believe Dave used 3rd valve for that note, but not sure. Also, in your text you mentioned that low B using 1-2-3 was almost a quarter tone flat! Did you mean a quarter tone sharp?? That B on almost all horns when played using 1-2-3 is very sharp.

    Your results and test are very detailed and great information for all of us. Very well done.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Dawsonville, GA
    Posts
    19
    It's a little late at the moment and this euphonium projects REALLY well (I took it outside and played some and it echoed in the neighborhood like a klaxon). Wife will probably complain at me if I start playing without a mute right now, so I'll retest those notes tomorrow and let you know, John.
    Trombone - Andreas Eastmann ETB432G
    Trombone - Buescher 410 Tenor (1926)
    Trumpet - John Packer JP251SW in Frosted Gold
    Euphonium - King 1129SP Marching Euphonium
    Euphonium - Wessex EP600 "Sinfonico"

  8. So. Frustrating.
    Why can't Wessex get their QC in order?
    Here EvanWeeks got a beautiful copy, and I got a dog.
    And he had to ship his flugabone back.

    If they'd just ship out the good ones, then... oh... argh...*sigh*

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Dawsonville, GA
    Posts
    19
    John, you were right, it was sharp on that 1-2-3 B natural, by about 15-12 cents on avg. I can bend it down with no issues, though, so armed with that knowledge it shouldn't be but a little practice to memorize that.

    Working on a recording, might be ready by Monday.
    Trombone - Andreas Eastmann ETB432G
    Trombone - Buescher 410 Tenor (1926)
    Trumpet - John Packer JP251SW in Frosted Gold
    Euphonium - King 1129SP Marching Euphonium
    Euphonium - Wessex EP600 "Sinfonico"

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Location
    Dawsonville, GA
    Posts
    19
    Shawn,

    I just went back and read that thread where you described your experience, including James Garney's response to the thread. I think Dave is right that it's very easy to over-blow this instrument. I've got the longer tuning slide pulled about a half inch from completely out at the moment, but that's better than when I started. I actually pushed it in a little today.

    When moving from my marching euph to this thing, I liken it to stepping out of a Ford F-150 and into a Porsche 911 GT2 RS. The marching euph is powerful and hauls a ton of sound, but the Sinfonico... it's a sensitive, touchy tool that wants to be stroked, told it's pretty and handled like the lady it is. I can't just blast a lungful of air into it and expect to be anywhere near in tune. If you relax and sigh into it and be gentle, there's a "sweet spot" with every pitch where the instrument just RESONATES. I stepped outside and played it, finding the center of the tone, and it just echoed like I was pushing great lung-fuls of air through the marching euph. It didn't take a ton of air, either, it's actually really cool when I can manage to get it right. That's what I'm working on now, is practicing with it a lot at finding those perfectly supported pitches a little easier and more naturally.

    I tell you, my embouchure, breathing and control are going to get WAY better as a result of using this instrument. I can already feel a difference just a few days in. I'm able to be more accurate with less effort. Now I just need to work on being CONSISTENTLY so.

    I don't know if I agree with Mr Garney's comment that the instrument won't be good for amateurs. I'm nothing if not an amateur, albeit a moderately talented one, and it seems to be working well for me. That said, it's not an instrument that you just pick up and instantly start ripping through the last few pages of the Arban's book with perfect tone and intonation (I couldn't do that with any instrument I own, but the point stands). While there's a definite "center" for every pitch, it will allow you to EASILY bend a half-tone up or down, and will take your lead on where to go. So, if you're in a situation where you need to play something with a certain intonation to fit into a chord, for example, this instrument will let you do that without fighting you on it at ALL. For me, this results in ME playing the pitch off-center almost effortlessly (and frustratingly frequently). It's just... agile, and compliant, and much gentler than any other brass instrument I've ever played, and it's highlighting that I need to work harder to be a better player. That's NOT a bad thing.
    Trombone - Andreas Eastmann ETB432G
    Trombone - Buescher 410 Tenor (1926)
    Trumpet - John Packer JP251SW in Frosted Gold
    Euphonium - King 1129SP Marching Euphonium
    Euphonium - Wessex EP600 "Sinfonico"

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