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Thread: Yet another (better) home made grime gutter / water reservoir

  1. #1
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    Yet another (better) home made grime gutter / water reservoir

    Jonathan Hodgetts at Wessex tells me that Wessex is about to start selling its own version of the classic Besson / Yamaha "water reservoir" for tubas and euphoniums at very reasonable prices (the genuine Besson one will set you back about $180 !!; the Yamaha one for euphs is about $40 but can be difficult to find). So I will probably end up with one of the Wessex gutters for my Wessex 981 clone.

    In the interim, however, I decided to make one myself that is better than the flexible one I posted earlier on this forum and is similar to one Dave Werden has described (using vinyl tubing) elsewhere on this site. So here it is. One improvement I would make to this is to add an Amado water key so the gutter doesn't have to be removed and re-attached in order to be drained. But for now, this works fine.

    Materials:


    • About 4.5" of 3/4" Silverline PVC pipe. I had some of this sitting around, but it came from Lowes. This is thin wall stuff (Silverline 1120?) rather than the heavier Schedule 40.
    • Two Hillman 7/8" Nylon Hole Plugs -- from the Lowes specialty hardware section.


    Tools:

    It really helps to have a drill press and a machine vise for this, but with care it could be done without either or both of these. Then you need a 7/16" drill bit (or about that size; a 1/2" would do as well) and a 19/64" drill bit. It would be better to have a 19/64" router bit or mill bit, but I didn't have one of these; and since I was working in plastic I knew I could get away with the drill bit as mill cutter .

    The first picture below shows the tube section after (1) a 19/64" hole was drilled for each bottom valve cap nipple, and (2) a 7/16" long slot was cut off the side of each large hole. The slot is about 3/8" long. The machine vise helps a lot with this since you can just drop the chuck down and move the vise table to cut the little slots. The distance between the large holes is 35mm. Sorry to mix dimension systems here, but I'm pretty sure the instrument was manufactured according to metric measurements. So for this one critical measurement, I stuck with metric. Otherwise, all my bits are in the English system.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    The second picture shows the finished product after the end plugs have been glued into the tube. This fits my Wessex EEb horn perfectly. It currently almost fits my Mack Brass euphonium well, but the 19/64" holes are a little too small for that. The nipples on the bottom caps of that horn seem to have a little larger outer diameter.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As I say, I'm inclined to add an Amado water key near one end in order to get the water out while playing without having to remove/replace the gutter. I used JB Kwik Weld to glue the end caps in, and would use that for the water key as well. On a metal gutter, I'd solder the water key on.

    Total cost on this is only a few dollars (even if you have to buy 10' of the PVC tube). It won't mar the instrument.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. #2
    Looks much better than mine! (But of course... you used actual tools!!)
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC4)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  3. #3
    Great job, Gary!

    I recently managed to poke the silver-soldered "cap" out of my Sterling grime gutter when I poked the end of a cleaning snake through it. Ugh. (One end had a nylon hole plug.)

    A competent repair tech can easily fix this puppy, but I went ahead and got a second nylon hole plug from Home Depot. It works fine, just that the entire silver tube is off-center slightly, meaning that the hole for the 3rd valve nipple is within 1/8" of the end of the cylinder -- which doesn't leave much room for a nylon hole plug.

    I made it work, but as you noted, it's a PITA to have to take the thing off to empty water out of it. Plus, I use a couple of cotton balls inside the tube to soak up water (I tried using chamois, and it quickly disintegrates for some odd reason) and, of course, the cotton tends to grow science projects.

    So being able to dump the water quickly (without getting it in your lap) is a definite plus.
    U.S. Army, Retired (built mid-Fifties)
    Adams E2 Euph (built 2017)
    Boosey & Co. Imperial Euph (built 1941)
    Edwards B454 Bass Trombone (built 2012)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb tuba (built 1958)
    Kanstul 33-T lBBb tuba (built 2010)
    Shen 3/4 upright bass (who cares?)

  4. I'm going to try a brass pipe drilled the same way as you do and plugged with some black plastic caps or plugs. The reason for brass is: 4 yamaha valves are not in line so I will bent the pipe slightly to follow the curve. One side plug should have some sort of a handle to quickly pull it out if needed to empty the gutter. Both sides plugs should be used for the ease of cleaning as mentioned by Eupher6. Actually more I think of it I come to a conclusion that if I drill a lot of small vent holes close to the top of the gutter it should speed up the drying process inside the pipe ? What kind of nipples should I mount on the bottom caps to mount the gutter ? Anybody with some pictures?

  5. #5
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    Keep in mind that advantages of the PVC pipe is that it is very light weight, easy to machine (or form the holes by hand), and won't mar the instrument as you're putting it on and off.

    If I were to make the device from metal I would not use "brass pipe" (maybe that is not exactly what was intended). I might use lighter weight 3/4" or maybe 1" copper plumbing pipe (more accurately, tubing). Or order some brass tubing (possibly chrome plated) from somewhere like Allied. But doing it in metal might require some kind of spring mechanism to hold it onto the horn. Both the Besson and the Yamaha seem to have an internal flat spring of some sort.

    I actually rather like the PVC version and have used it twice so far this past week.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #6
    FWIW, I have both the Adams water catcher (metal, with an internal spring) and my own vinyl catcher. I put the Adams catcher on the horn for "dress-up" days, but use the vinyl all the rest of the time. The latter is not going to scratch or wear the bottom caps, and it is quieter when taking off & putting back on again.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC4)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  7. The Yamaha watercatcher I have is simply a silver plated cylinder with slots drilled in. There's nothing inside it. It's only a friction fit.
    Christopher Chen
    bolded are for sale
    B&H 967 - Globe Stamp
    B&H 960 (3 valve comp euph) - Globe Stamp
    Salvation Army Triumphonic Eb Alto, silver plated


    On the lookout for:
    Silver plated:
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    York/Sterling/LMI variants accepted

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy684 View Post
    The Yamaha watercatcher I have is simply a silver plated cylinder with slots drilled in. There's nothing inside it. It's only a friction fit.
    Interesting. I thought I saw a spring in pictures of the Yamaha version, but clearly I was wrong.

    My concern about making a metal one without a spring is that it would either be a bit loose, would loosen up and make noise, or would be too tight. Difficult to machine it to be "just right" and stay that way, and I couldn't think of an approach I'd have confidence in. If I were to get involved in the commercial production of these things, I'd be inclined to develop one with some kind of replaceable "gasket" so that when it wears, you could just get a new gasket and be good as new. But that introduces complications and cost. And it's way too much effort for just creating one for personal use .
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  9. #9
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    Here's a link to see a picture of Yamaha's valve trough. The slots are cut with a slim cut line to act like a spring in holding the trough onto the nipples.

    http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post112258
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton Brandon Jones sig mpc
    YEP-641S (on long-term loan to grandson)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
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  10. #10
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    Ah! I feel stupid since I didn't grasp the function from the picture previously. But that makes me wonder a bit more: brass does not seem to be a particularly good material for fashioning any spring-like part. Steel, yes. Bronze, yes. But brass? That I find surprising. I'd expect fatigue problems that spring steel or bronze wouldn't exhibit. But if they work, they work.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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