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Sticky Valve on Yamaha 642

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  • Euphyoungvituoso89
    Member
    • Jul 2006
    • 67

    Sticky Valve on Yamaha 642

    I have a problem where my first valve keeps sticking no matter what I do. I oil, oil, and oil. Petroleum Only. and clean it out with hot water. Oiled again cleaned the inside and oiled again. Nothing only stick or sticks half way never right. My horn is a YEP642S

    Can someone please help me
  • davewerden
    Administrator
    • Nov 2005
    • 11142

    #2
    Valve Problem

    I have seen mention on other forums of Yamaha valve troubles, but they don't seem common. Are you careful not to eat right before you play? Various sugars and other "stuff" can get into the valves, and of course that would hit the first valve first. Sugar especially can be tough to clean off.

    Try this. Take out the first valve and take it to your sink. Lather some Ivory soap (only Ivory because it contains no scents or other additives) and rub it on the valve. Wash the valve and rinse it off. Then get more lather and apply to the valve once more. With the lather in place, put the valve back in your horn and play it. The soap is a darned good lubricant. I have done this and it lasts 2 or 3 days before needing to be applied again.

    Let us know if that works.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

    Comment

    • daruby
      Moderator
      • Apr 2006
      • 2217

      #3
      Valve Problem

      I had a recent problem like that with a new Yamaha YEP201 3-valve horn. The Yamaha valve guides are held in place by the valve stem (it tightens a washer that holds the plastic/metal guide). If the stem has come loose at some time, the guide will shift deeper into the guide slot. This causes it to bottom out and the valve to stick about half way down. No amount of oil or cleaning will help. You need to loosen the stem, then remove the valve. You may need to unscrew the stem completely then reseat the guide in its proper place (there is a little plastic "nipple" that fits into a hole in the valve.) Be careful to seat the plastic guide properly, then push the it in so that the tab that fits into the slot is pushed in as far as possible. Tighten the stem. Now re-oil and reinsert the piston. This solved the problem on my student's YEP201. I believe the basic guide system on the YEP642S is similar and the symptoms you describe fit the problem I saw above.

      Doug
      Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
      Concord Band
      Winchendon Winds
      Townsend Military Band

      Comment

      • WaltTrombone
        Member
        • Aug 2006
        • 42

        #4
        Valve Problem

        While you have the valve apart for cleaning, also make sure that the slot that the valve guide fits into is also very clean.

        Another thing to check- If you spin the valve around to spread the oil and find the slot for the guide, the guide can get worn and develop rough edges. You can trim those with a very sharp blade, or replace the guide.

        Sometimes, the oil is just too thick, especially if the valve has a tight fit (like your Yamaha, especially if it's new!) I like the Hetman Light Piston. I like synthetic oils, not petroleum-based, because they last longer. Petroleum-based oils tend to evaporate very quickly, and need to be reapplied almost every day.

        I have (in the past) asked the tuba designer for Yamaha about the tightness of their valves. Many repairmen feel that they are too tight, and need to be lapped more, so that they will fit looser and not stick as much. He does acknowledge that sometimes they will stick, but that's usually because they need to be cleaned, or to use a light oil. They feel that keeping the valves tight improves the response, centering, and tuning of the instruments.

        Comment

        • Euphyoungvituoso89
          Member
          • Jul 2006
          • 67

          #5
          Valve Problem

          I tried the soap method it worked. I guess Ill wait for it to get warm and Ill give the whole horn a spa day with the water hose. Which gives me time to get some new valve oil and slide grease since I had ran out.

          Comment

          • prototypedenNIS
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2006
            • 518

            #6
            Valve Problem

            Originally posted by: WaltTromboneI have (in the past) asked the tuba designer for Yamaha about the tightness of their valves. Many repairmen feel that they are too tight, and need to be lapped more, so that they will fit looser and not stick as much. He does acknowledge that sometimes they will stick, but that's usually because they need to be cleaned,
            As a repairman, well, we have a contract with one of the school divisions to lap the Brand new Yamaha trumpet valves because the bureaucrats in the SD won't look at buying anything else, but they acknowledge that the valves are too tight.

            In the hands of a picky professional who keeps his/her horn clean constantly it can be ok, but it seems the only thing that keeps these valves moving well (aside from relapping them) is eternal vigilance.

            Comment

            • eufcharles
              Junior Member
              • Apr 2011
              • 3

              #7
              Valve Problem

              I solved a major problem of sticky valves on my yamaha 642.
              I just bought the oil hetman1 and used it. the instrument works much better. I still have to clean it well but i can say that the new oil works really good since the first time I used it. Today I will clean the valves from the residues of all oils that I used previously (holton, al cass, yamaha, d.wick, and many others). I hope I have finally solved the problem. in the last two years I had constantly to clean and lubricate the valves without positive results. many thanks for the advice of hetman1 oil.

              Comment

              • JBrassLee
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2011
                • 197

                #8
                Valve Problem

                One other thing to think about is your hand and finger position. I can make any valve on any horn stick by pushing against it laterally instead of straight up and down. This could be an even bigger problem on the Yamaha because of the tight tolerances. This can be exacerbated further by low quality oils evaporating under heavy use.

                I recently had to revisit this issue myslef while getting ready to perform The Melody Shop.

                The valves on my 321 NEVER stuck. However, everytime I played the Melody Shop the first valve would stick on the run just before the highest note in the piece toward the end. It happened every single time. I then figured out that my hands were all over the place and my finger positions became stressed and awkward because I was blazing through the piece. (not blazing as in playing well, but blazing as in playing as fast as I could, hehe)

                I was pushing the valves around in all different directions. At any rate, i figured out what I was doing and cleaned it up before the concert.

                Lee

                Comment

                • ludemanr
                  Junior Member
                  • Oct 2022
                  • 1

                  #9
                  Sticky 1st valve on Yamaha Baritone Horn

                  Originally posted by davewerden View Post
                  I have seen mention on other forums of Yamaha valve troubles, but they don't seem common. Are you careful not to eat right before you play? Various sugars and other "stuff" can get into the valves, and of course that would hit the first valve first. Sugar especially can be tough to clean off.

                  Try this. Take out the first valve and take it to your sink. Lather some Ivory soap (only Ivory because it contains no scents or other additives) and rub it on the valve. Wash the valve and rinse it off. Then get more lather and apply to the valve once more. With the lather in place, put the valve back in your horn and play it. The soap is a darned good lubricant. I have done this and it lasts 2 or 3 days before needing to be applied again.

                  Let us know if that works.
                  Ever since high school many years ago, I have had trouble with a sticky 1st valve. I clean it and oil it and as soon as I play it begins to get progressively more sticky. Is it possible that my saliva is acidic causing the valve to be sluggish?

                  Comment

                  • davewerden
                    Administrator
                    • Nov 2005
                    • 11142

                    #10
                    Originally posted by ludemanr View Post
                    Ever since high school many years ago, I have had trouble with a sticky 1st valve. I clean it and oil it and as soon as I play it begins to get progressively more sticky. Is it possible that my saliva is acidic causing the valve to be sluggish?
                    Have you had the whole instrument cleaned? Dirt in the leadpipe will hit the 1st valve right away, so at the very least swab that pipe...and brush your teeth before playing if possible.

                    Clean the bottom caps, which can cause all kinds of mischief!
                    https://youtu.be/RuH9jEC4RKc

                    Some cleaning tips for pistons:
                    https://youtu.be/EuBFS_Ln8-E

                    And one more, which is often overlooked:
                    https://youtu.be/rFfZ5TIlizw
                    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
                    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
                    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
                    Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
                    YouTube: dwerden
                    Facebook: davewerden
                    Twitter: davewerden
                    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

                    Comment

                    • ghmerrill
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 2387

                      #11
                      Valve guide?

                      Take the valve guide out and see if it's still sticky -- and where. Do you see any marks on the piston?
                      Gary Merrill
                      Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
                      Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
                      Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
                      1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
                      Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
                      1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

                      Comment

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