3 + 1 vs. 4 Inline (valves)

[tbonesullivan]

Perhaps I was not clear. Valve front euphoniums with upright bells are an anomaly. In that context they are barely worth discussion academically. Valve front horns with front facing valves are far more common and are usually beginner horns or used in marching bands. When marching it’s far easier to balance a horn with front valves than upright. You use the crook below and to the right of the valves helps to support the horn with the thumb. These are almost exclusively non-compensating horns with 3 valves.

I don't think I've seen a valve-front compensating horn aside from the Festivo. I have seen a good number of 4 valve front-action horns from Conn over the years of stalking the Baltimore Brass website. But most are definitely 3 valves, and usually bell front as well.

[davewerden]

I don't think I've seen a valve-front compensating horn aside from the Festivo. I have seen a good number of 4 valve front-action horns from Conn over the years of stalking the Baltimore Brass website. But most are definitely 3 valves, and usually bell front as well.

Marzan (Willson) also have a 4-valve front-valve compensating euphonium, similar to the Festivo. They have upright bells. I think Besson actually made a similar horn for a while, and offered a curved bell (not sure, though).

[MichaelSchott]

Marzan (Willson) also have a 4-valve front-valve compensating euphonium, similar to the Festivo. They have upright bells. I think Besson actually made a similar horn for a while, and offered a curved bell (not sure, though).

Just FYI, Willson no longer shows the 2975 on their website. Not sure if that means it’s discontinued.

[tbonesullivan]

Interesting! I looked on google, and it looks like Marzan/ Willson made a few different versions of that horn. I don't think the Festivo is a stencil of any of them, though I don't doubt that the Marzan horn was the inspiration.

I also now see that Willson is making Three valve compensating Euphoniums, which they label as having "3 automatically compensating valves". Seems like an interesting move.

[ghmerrill]

Valve front euphoniums with upright bells are an anomaly. In that context they are barely worth discussion academically.

Valve front euphoniums with piston valves and upright bells are unusual. Valve front euphoniums with rotary valves and upright bells are not all that uncommon in certain areas (and Cerveny currently lists several of them). Of course, they're non-compensating, and they aren't really beginner horns.

[scubaeuph]

The 3+1 system was devised years ago (around 1850 I believe with the advent of the compensating system) as the recognized standard for professional horns. First for military bands it is easier to carry and play on the march. Second naturally you have much better dexterity (and strength) in your left index finger versus your right pinky. I've never figured out why the four across the top still remains out there. If a player decides to get serious about his playing, he has to move to a 3+1 anyway.

[tbonesullivan]

Thinking about the 3+1 compensating system, when did people start using main tuning slide triggers in the widespread sense? Yamaha didn't even have them until 2017, and they are usually pretty on top of things. When I first was looking into Euphoniums 5 years ago, I never saw them. Now they are everywhere seemingly. Also on some higher model tubas as well, some of which have little elastic bands all over the valve slides to bring them back to position.

[bbocaner]

Interesting! I looked on google, and it looks like Marzan/ Willson made a few different versions of that horn. I don't think the Festivo is a stencil of any of them

The Festivo started out as a copy of a fairly rare Besson front-action model, which apparently pre-dates the creation of the Marzan, but they did quite a bit of customization of the design (and perhaps adaptation to use some of their existing tooling?) as well. I think it's fair to say it's its own independent design, with some heritage in the Besson instrument. Wessex has the instrument they started out with for sale on their web site:

https://wessex-tubas.com/collections...onium-baritone

[bbocaner]

Thinking about the 3+1 compensating system, when did people start using main tuning slide triggers in the widespread sense? Yamaha didn't even have them until 2017, and they are usually pretty on top of things. When I first was looking into Euphoniums 5 years ago, I never saw them. Now they are everywhere seemingly. Also on some higher model tubas as well, some of which have little elastic bands all over the valve slides to bring them back to position.

I had seen custom one-off fabricated tuning triggers as early as the 1980s and I believe there was a kit available in the 1990s. But of course the Conn Connstellation had one in the 1960s and I think the idea was first tried in the 19th century, although probably not on a euphonium. I think the Besson Prestige was probably the first high-volume factory production use on a "modern" euphonium, that came out in 2002 I believe. From there, other makers saw the value and also started adding it.

Tuba players, particularly of american style front-action tubas, have a long tradition of manipulating slides while they play to adjust intonation. The models that come with straps on the tuning slides aren't necessarily elastic to bring them back to home position, I believe they are to prevent the player from pulling to far and either pulling the slide off or getting it to the point where it could become jammed.

[RickF]

(snip) The models that come with straps on the tuning slides aren't necessarily elastic to bring them back to home position, I believe they are to prevent the player from pulling to far and either pulling the slide off or getting it to the point where it could become jammed.

Barry is correct about tuba players using strings on their slides to prevent their slides from being pulled too far. Chris Olka is an excellent example of playing a tuba with these strings. See this video.
...

[davewerden]

I think it was in 1980 that I saw a performer using a Miraphone compensating euph (their first model). He had a factory option of a trigger, but it worked the 1st and 3rd slides simultaneously. Simpler and clever in its own way. Didn't catch on, though.

[tbonesullivan]

Tuba players, particularly of american style front-action tubas, have a long tradition of manipulating slides while they play to adjust intonation. The models that come with straps on the tuning slides aren't necessarily elastic to bring them back to home position, I believe they are to prevent the player from pulling to far and either pulling the slide off or getting it to the point where it could become jammed.

Ahhh, now I see. I've seen the adjusting before, but just hadn't seen many people with the string before. I had noticed that most tubas have the first valve slide pointing upwards, so it can be easily manipulated. I also played with a tuba player who was using a F tuba with a 2nd valve slide trigger. That was definitely interesting to see.

[Sara Hood]

"Chris Olka is an excellent example of playing a tuba with these strings." (RickF)

I think I am jealous of how effortless and smooth his slides seem to work. It barely seems that he is pushing or pulling on them at all. I wonder what his secret, and choice of lube, is.
- Sara

[tbonesullivan]

I think I am jealous of how effortless and smooth his slides seem to work. It barely seems that he is pushing or pulling on them at all. I wonder what his secret, and choice of lube, is.
- Sara

Most likely, his secret is a tech that lapped the slides for him, making them smoother and decreasing the diameter just a bit. That would make them easier to move, and then he probably uses "Slide Oil" instead of "Slide Gel" or "Grease".

I had the opposite problem on a trombone, and the tech just put a dent ball inside one leg, increasing the diameter ever so slightly.

[ghmerrill]

Most likely, his secret is a tech that lapped the slides for him, making them smoother and decreasing the diameter just a bit. That would make them easier to move, and then he probably uses "Slide Oil" instead of "Slide Gel" or "Grease".

Yes, this is what I did (i.e., I did it -- not a tech) to the 1st valve slide on my Cerveny 781 BBb horn. It's quite simple to do IF the slide legs are really parallel. I then used standard valve oil (Alisyn in my case) as the lubricant. Care must be taken in the lapping since you want it to work smoothly and easily, with virtually no effort, but to remain in place if you let it go or set it for "standard tuning". It should not be as loose/slick as a trombone hand slide. Finally, it's absolutely silly to do this unless you vent the valve for that slide. However, once all that's done on a standard German/Czech-style tuba, then your hand rests on the top bow and you can use the 1st valve slide to dynamically tune as needed. It worked so well that for any valve combinations involving the 1st valve I rarely used the 4th valve and confined it's use almost solely to the low range where it was really needed to lower the pitch. 4th valve combinations for "alternate fingerings" in order to adjust pitch in all registers except the contra one were generally eliminated.