Miraphone 5050 (2nd valve issue) Possibly Valve guide

[tonewheeler]

None of my valves have ever spinned easily either.

[Snorlax]

Another 5050 oddity as long as we're discussing them...My 5050 came with a tuning slide that was too long, so the horn played flat across the board. I liked the sound so much, though, that I was willing to ask Dan Schultz to work some magic on the slide and the tubing that accepts the slide to bring the pitch up.
But: I also sent Miraphone an email (in German) outlining the situation, and received a quick answer that they had a shorter slide available, so they must have been aware of the issue. I also mentioned it to the vendor from which I bought the horn. In any case, within a few days, the shorter slide arrived via FedEx.

[Snorlax]

Well...as to the valves, it sounds as if it's time for another cleanout...I'd think, though, that all the gunk would be washed away after two years that included at least two or three trips to the bathtub and other conscientious euphonium hygiene. One of the baths was intended to remove the Hetman synthetic oil that left copious amounts of green slime in the valves. Now that I am "de-hetmanned," there is virtually no green slime in the valves or mouthpipe.

[tonewheeler]

Received the horn back this afternoon. We did not do a lapping at this point. Jim (my repairman) took a closer look at the 2nd valve and discovered some build up along the outside edge of the ports of the valve that I had missed. He gave it a thorough cleaning and it seems to work fine now. I just got back from band practice and it played flawlessly.

In the meantime, I'm considering switching back to Blue Juice valve oil (my idea not his). I heard that Blue Juice keeps the valves cleaner. Myth or fact?

I'll keep everyone posted on the valve.

Thanks again for all the great suggestions.

Dan

[davewerden]

In the meantime, I'm considering switching back to Blue Juice valve oil (my idea not his). I heard that Blue Juice keeps the valves cleaner. Myth or fact?

It says so on the bottle, so it has to be true, right? Regardless, I'm a huge fan of Blue Juice. First, it seems a little more "slippery" than others I have used. Our brass group was rehearsing last weekend and the first trumpet player had a valve he could not get to work. One of us loaned him some Blue Juice and it started working! That was probably only a temporary fix - the valve probably needs a good cleaning - but it worked!

I notice less residue than when I used Al Cass. Otherwise, it is hard to say if it does or does not help keep the valves clean based on just using it. All I can say for sure is that Blue Juice is the best oil I've ever used, and I've been using valve oil for a lot of years! (Maybe I should open a franchise!)

[megan]

In the meantime, I'm considering switching back to Blue Juice valve oil (my idea not his). I heard that Blue Juice keeps the valves cleaner. Myth or fact?

I've switched back-and-forth between Blue Juice and Yamaha Synthetic several times over the years. While I occasionally get a waxy buildup around the valve ports and in the bottom caps when I'm using Yamaha Synthetic, I've never had them when I've used Blue Juice.

On the other hand, with Blue Juice, I find I need to oil my valves every 3rd or 4th day; with Yamaha Synthetic, I only need to oil them every second or third week, and have occasionally gone over a month between oilings without experiencing a noticeable degradation in valve performance.

So it is true that my valves are cleaner when I use Blue Juice: but only because I have to oil--and therefore, clean--them much more frequently with Blue Juice.

[tonewheeler]

Was Valve Guides---now valve oil

I orginally went with Hetman's (it came with my 5050) and then switched to Ultra Pure a few months later after I discovered the "green gunk" issue. I couldn't get the repairman to weigh in on the whole valve oil issue or make a recommendation (and he sells everything but Ultra Pure). He said it's "subjective" to the player and instrument. I've just switched to Blue Juice for now and well see if that helps.

[bbocaner]

I orginally went with Hetman's (it came with my 5050) and then switched to Ultra Pure a few months later after I discovered the "green gunk" issue. I couldn't get the repairman to weigh in on the whole valve oil issue or make a recommendation (and he sells everything but Ultra Pure). He said it's "subjective" to the player and instrument. I've just switched to Blue Juice for now and well see if that helps.

OK now that's interesting. I had the same kind of problem with my BE2056 and ultra pure. It worked great for a few months, but started sticking more and more. My repairman found that the problem was the valve guide, so we filed it down a little but the problem recurred after a while. We had the theory that the ultra pure valve oil was reacting with the plastic that the valve guides were made of, causing them to soften and swell. I switched to the Yamaha stuff and after a few days the problem went away and never came back. The gentleman who makes ultra pure said he'd never heard of such a thing... but there was some pretty strong circumstantial evidence.

[tonewheeler]

My repairman found that the problem was the valve guide, so we filed it down a little but the problem recurred after a while. We had the theory that the ultra pure valve oil was reacting with the plastic that the valve guides were made of, causing them to soften and swell. .

This entire discussion of having to purchase new valve guides and then turn around and modify them is a bit disturbing. I would think that when you purchase a Miraphone or whatever brand nylon valve guide it would fit perfectly? Maybe that's the industry standard. Also, non of the guides on my 5050 have had any issues with malformation or "mushrooming". I just think the tolerances are tight and that I'm going to have to be diligent with cleaning the valves and the guide channel. Noteably, I never had that issue with old Yam 321.

Also, looking back now and wondering about the the valve oil issue, I did observe a film on the valves with the ultra pure. I'm not going to read much into it at this point. I'll just switch oil for a while and see if that helps.

[RickF]

Dan,

Please keep us up to date on this issue. Hopefully more cleaning and switching oils will be the remedy. If all else fails I'll trade you my horn straight up (Yammy 641) as my 2nd valve works great.

[tonewheeler]

Will do!

[Snorlax]

Dan,
I had the same issue with valve guides for my old Willson. They had to be filed down to fit into the channel. I took great care to ensure that no filing dust ever got into the casing or the channel.

The Miraphone guides follow the same pattern, so it will be a matter of time and patience if I decide to replace any of them.

I am coming around to the conclusion that it's just some schmutz in the casing that's causing my issues.

PS--slide pixx coming.

[tonewheeler]

One month later and the 2nd valves are working flawlessly. It turned out that there was some "gunk" or debris in the 2nd valve guide/casing I had missed. I have attributed this problem to the tight tolerances of the valve guide and slot inside the casing. I also switched back from Ultra-Pure valve oil to Blue Juice and the problem has not reoccurred since.

[tonewheeler]

Another update: Since switching to Blue Juice, I no longer have the leaking problem from the bottom ports on my my valves. I ordered a water catcher, but now it now seems unnecessary. I'm attributing the change to the switch in valve oils.

[megan]

Another update: Since switching to Blue Juice, I no longer have the leaking problem from the bottom ports on my my valves. I ordered a water catcher, but now it now seems unnecessary. I'm attributing the change to the switch in valve oils.

I suspect it's seasonal, i.e., due to the lower relative humidity in winter vs. summer/fall, rather than due to any inherent property of Blue Juice. Lower relative humidity means the atmosphere absorbs more of the water vapor in your breath, so there's less moisture available to condense and leak out of the bottom of the valves.

I know I always dump a lot less water in winter than in other seasons of the year.