New Euphoniums on Trial - Gold Prestige, Silver Prestige and Geneva GVL

[RobWP]

Hi Everyone

New to the forum, so please be gentle!

By way of background: in my late teens, early twenties I sat in number two seats at Norwich Citadel and then Coventry City bands. Since then have played baritone, then back to euphonium, then Bandmaster (so not really playing at all), then a bit more euphonium. For the past three years, I've been on Eb Bass. Just back on to euphonium in the past couple of months. I have a Besson custom made euph that I bought from my brother in law, so no idea of model, etc!

I am in the market for a new euphonium and am currently trialling the gold Besson Prestige 2052-8G, silver Besson prestige 2052-2 and Geneva Cardinal GVL models. I am also looking for a new mouthpiece having played on a DW 0AL for over 30 years!

First impressions:

Gold Besson Prestige is a beautiful instrument. It certainly sounds the most resonant (due to the floating lead pipe, I guess) with a slightly "understated" tone compared to the silver Prestige (perhaps due to the gold lacquer?). It does seem more of a blow than the other two.

Silver Besson Prestige has a more defined tone than the Gold, but I'm finding it more difficult to pitch on this instrument (possibly only due to changing the instruments and mouthpieces so often in one session). I did manage a clean version of the beginning of The Call of the Righteous towards the end of my lunchtime session!

Geneva Cardinal GVL seems the easiest to play. It is much easier to centre the sound of each note and have not so many of them fall over. But I do worry that it sounds more like a souped up Baritone than the Besson sound I am used to.

Tuning on the Gold Besson was terrible, but almost spot on on the Geneva (I've just realised I don't think I tested the Silver for that).

Mouthpiece-wise, I don't seem to be able to get away from the DW SM3U from a variety of DW classics, Alliance DCs and an SM3UX and SM4UXR.

Would welcome any feedback and advice!

Kind regards.

Rob

[DEF1]

Hi Rob,

It’s hard to make a decision on an instrument for someone else but from what you’ve said above it would appear that the Geneva was the better of the 3 you tested. Sound is sometimes hard to gauge when you are behind the instrument. Can you get someone else to play them and you listen and see how the Geneva sounds to the listener compared to the Bessons.

Regarding mouthpiece, a 0 size is very big and if that’s what you’ve been used to in the past I would try and stay towards the larger size mouthpiece. I play on a SM3 Ultra but you could also try a SM2 Ultra and see what you think. I think a 4 would be a bit small for you from what you have previously been used to.

I would try and find a mouthpiece you are happy with first and then look for an instrument as lots of swapping about might be confusing things.

Good luck with your testing.

[aroberts781]

I have no experience with any of those three horns but I enjoyed reading your thoughts, so thanks for sharing. I think it is really interesting to hear about the compromises that one has to choose between the sound/tone that you are after versus the intonation/ease/playability. I guess it is very hard to have it all!

I did play for a few years on an SM3U and really liked it, so if that is the one you prefer I say go for it! I ended up switching to a 3AL after a few friends unanimously preferred my sound on the 3AL over the SM3U in a blind test. Although I did prefer the feel of the SM3U over the 3AL. Specifically I felt like my flexibility and lip slurs were more secure with the SM3U. Worth noting that I don't play a SM3U or 3AL at the moment, so whichever you end up choosing it may not be the one you're playing 5 years from now, haha.

[RobWP]

Thank you - great advice! I think you might be right on which instrument is the "right" one, but only had 24 hours with them, so will see what happens over the next few days. It might just be that the Geneva is closest to the instrument I have now. I have a euphonium friend (ex-ISB) coming over on Saturday, so will definitely listen to what he gets out of them.

I did wonder about the SM2U, but the SM3U has taught me just how much air the 0AL needed! The SM3U is a little easier but not too small to give me much of a problem. As you say, the 0 is very big - my teacher (back in my teens) recommended it as "like playing into a bucket!"

[RobWP]

Hi Rob,

It’s hard to make a decision on an instrument for someone else but from what you’ve said above it would appear that the Geneva was the better of the 3 you tested. Sound is sometimes hard to gauge when you are behind the instrument. Can you get someone else to play them and you listen and see how the Geneva sounds to the listener compared to the Bessons.

Regarding mouthpiece, a 0 size is very big and if that’s what you’ve been used to in the past I would try and stay towards the larger size mouthpiece. I play on a SM3 Ultra but you could also try a SM2 Ultra and see what you think. I think a 4 would be a bit small for you from what you have previously been used to.

I would try and find a mouthpiece you are happy with first and then look for an instrument as lots of swapping about might be confusing things.

Good luck with your testing.

Thank you - great advice! I think you might be right on which instrument is the "right" one, but only had 24 hours with them, so will see what happens over the next few days. It might just be that the Geneva is closest to the instrument I have now. I have a euphonium friend (ex-ISB) coming over on Saturday, so will definitely listen to what he gets out of them.

I did wonder about the SM2U, but the SM3U has taught me just how much air the 0AL needed! The SM3U is a little easier but not too small to give me much of a problem. As you say, the 0 is very big - my teacher (back in my teens) recommended it as "like playing into a bucket!"

[RobWP]

I have no experience with any of those three horns but I enjoyed reading your thoughts, so thanks for sharing. I think it is really interesting to hear about the compromises that one has to choose between the sound/tone that you are after versus the intonation/ease/playability. I guess it is very hard to have it all!

I did play for a few years on an SM3U and really liked it, so if that is the one you prefer I say go for it! I ended up switching to a 3AL after a few friends unanimously preferred my sound on the 3AL over the SM3U in a blind test. Although I did prefer the feel of the SM3U over the 3AL. Specifically I felt like my flexibility and lip slurs were more secure with the SM3U. Worth noting that I don't play a SM3U or 3AL at the moment, so whichever you end up choosing it may not be the one you're playing 5 years from now, haha.

Haha! Yes - I think the reason I've stuck with 0AL for so long is that I recognised changing mouthpiece might become an expensive business!! Interesting thoughts on the 3AL - I have one of those in the box to try, so might test it further against the SM3U.

I guess if anyone ever produces an instrument that has it all it will be a fly away best seller!!

[MichaelSchott]

We don’t know the bore of your custom Besson but the Prestige like most modern euphs has a large bore and bell. They may take more than a day to develop a comfort level. Also, they need the trigger to compensate for their intonation quirks.

[RobWP]

We don’t know the bore of your custom Besson but the Prestige like most modern euphs has a large bore and bell. They may take more than a day to develop a comfort level. Also, they need the trigger to compensate for their intonation quirks.

Thanks Michael. I'm sure you're right about developing a comfort level - I am getting better with the Prestige's. I guess the Geneva is easier because as a dual bore, the bore going into the valves is smaller. Having blown them all, I would think that my Besson is a smaller bore than the Prestige's, certainly.

Never had a trigger before - so getting used to using it! I imagine these Prestige's are no different intonation-wise than other Bessons, I was just surprised at how much more accurate the Geneva seemed to be in comparison.

[MichaelSchott]

Thanks Michael. I'm sure you're right about developing a comfort level - I am getting better with the Prestige's. I guess the Geneva is easier because as a dual bore, the bore going into the valves is smaller. Having blown them all, I would think that my Besson is a smaller bore than the Prestige's, certainly.

Never had a trigger before - so getting used to using it! I imagine these Prestige's are no different intonation-wise than other Bessons, I was just surprised at how much more accurate the Geneva seemed to be in comparison.

Besson intonation issues continue generation after generation. I struggle to understand why they don't do something about the consistently sharp 6th partial. Perhaps they experimented with a modification and it changed the legendary Besson tone quality. Just a theory. But of course many of the greatest players in the world play the Prestige or Sovereign and they are not all brand ambassadors. The trigger would certainly help. Personally when I considered a new horn, the consistent intonation of the Adams E3 won me over. I chose not to get the optional trigger and other than the sharp middle G concert, I'd never use the trigger. I can't speak to the Geneva but if you like the accuracy and the tone quality, it sounds like a great choice.

[RobWP]

Besson intonation issues continue generation after generation. I struggle to understand why they don't do something about the consistently sharp 6th partial. Perhaps they experimented with a modification and it changed the legendary Besson tone quality. Just a theory. But of course many of the greatest players in the world play the Prestige or Sovereign and they are not all brand ambassadors. The trigger would certainly help. Personally when I considered a new horn, the consistent intonation of the Adams E3 won me over. I chose not to get the optional trigger and other than the sharp middle G concert, I'd never use the trigger. I can't speak to the Geneva but if you like the accuracy and the tone quality, it sounds like a great choice.

It does have to be something like that, doesn't it, Michael? Either messing with the tone or too expensive to change machinery, etc. I'm struggling to get away from the Prestige to the Geneva (or anything else) precisely because that's the sound I expect from a euphonium - having heard it from so many of the great players over the years for so many years. Must be very frustrating if you're one of the new guys on the block!

[spkissane]

Having played all three of these models at one point, I wouldn't say that the Geneva sounds like a baritone or really has a baritone-like quality. I've heard that from people before when comparing the Besson Prestige to other models of euphonium, and I think that misconception lies with the fact that the Prestige has a very specific sound profile. I think someone on this forum (maybe Don?) said at one point that a Besson Prestige is a great option if you want to sound like Steven Mead. Now, while I don't NECESSARILY agree 100 percent, I understand the sentiment. The Prestige has a very soft, "rounded corners" feel and sound, which I think can make any other model horn feel a little harsh when compared side by side. I personally prefer more brightness in my sound than a Prestige typically offers, but as always, it's up to the individual.

[miketeachesclass]

I currently own a gold lacquer prestige, a silver Sovereign with trigger, and a Geneva Cardinal (and played extensively on a GVL before the cardinal).

I'm currently playing the gold prestige.

For me, it was the best candidate among the horns, both in terms of sound quality I am after, and response. Yes, the 6th partial is very high. I go full trigger on that partial most of the time, unless it's the 5th of the chord or something and needs to be a bit high.

In my experience, the Genevas play well, but the valves are impossibly stiff, even when broken in. The besson valves are just... buttery.

I agree with the comments that say a 0AL is likely to be too large. I think it's going to be the wrong piece for these horns. Not saying you can't play something big, but boy, that's a monster even for a horn the size of modern euphoniums.

Mike

Hi Everyone

New to the forum, so please be gentle!

By way of background: in my late teens, early twenties I sat in number two seats at Norwich Citadel and then Coventry City bands. Since then have played baritone, then back to euphonium, then Bandmaster (so not really playing at all), then a bit more euphonium. For the past three years, I've been on Eb Bass. Just back on to euphonium in the past couple of months. I have a Besson custom made euph that I bought from my brother in law, so no idea of model, etc!

I am in the market for a new euphonium and am currently trialling the gold Besson Prestige 2052-8G, silver Besson prestige 2052-2 and Geneva Cardinal GVL models. I am also looking for a new mouthpiece having played on a DW 0AL for over 30 years!

First impressions:

Gold Besson Prestige is a beautiful instrument. It certainly sounds the most resonant (due to the floating lead pipe, I guess) with a slightly "understated" tone compared to the silver Prestige (perhaps due to the gold lacquer?). It does seem more of a blow than the other two.

Silver Besson Prestige has a more defined tone than the Gold, but I'm finding it more difficult to pitch on this instrument (possibly only due to changing the instruments and mouthpieces so often in one session). I did manage a clean version of the beginning of The Call of the Righteous towards the end of my lunchtime session!

Geneva Cardinal GVL seems the easiest to play. It is much easier to centre the sound of each note and have not so many of them fall over. But I do worry that it sounds more like a souped up Baritone than the Besson sound I am used to.

Tuning on the Gold Besson was terrible, but almost spot on on the Geneva (I've just realised I don't think I tested the Silver for that).

Mouthpiece-wise, I don't seem to be able to get away from the DW SM3U from a variety of DW classics, Alliance DCs and an SM3UX and SM4UXR.

Would welcome any feedback and advice!

Kind regards.

Rob

[djwpe]

I think someone on this forum (maybe Don?) said at one point that a Besson Prestige is a great option if you want to sound like Steven Mead. Now, while I don't NECESSARILY agree 100 percent, I understand the sentiment. The Prestige has a very soft, "rounded corners" feel and sound, which I think can make any other model horn feel a little harsh when compared side by side. I personally prefer more brightness in my sound than a Prestige typically offers, but as always, it's up to the individual.

I think it WAS me that said that. The Prestige has a strong characteristic sound (I like the word “diffuse”), but rounded corners is a great description also. This sound CAN be overcome (ref David Childs), but I feel like Roland Fröscher’s sound changed dramatically when he had to give up his prototype Meinl horn for the prestige.

Don Winston

[RobWP]

Having played all three of these models at one point, I wouldn't say that the Geneva sounds like a baritone or really has a baritone-like quality. I've heard that from people before when comparing the Besson Prestige to other models of euphonium, and I think that misconception lies with the fact that the Prestige has a very specific sound profile. I think someone on this forum (maybe Don?) said at one point that a Besson Prestige is a great option if you want to sound like Steven Mead. Now, while I don't NECESSARILY agree 100 percent, I understand the sentiment. The Prestige has a very soft, "rounded corners" feel and sound, which I think can make any other model horn feel a little harsh when compared side by side. I personally prefer more brightness in my sound than a Prestige typically offers, but as always, it's up to the individual.

Yes Sean, I can totally accept that my preference with these instruments is based on what I am used to hearing. Most of the top players in the UK play on a Besson Prestige, and so I am somewhat indoctrinated into hearing the Prestige as the archetypal British euphonium sound. As I've played the Geneva through the week, I've come to see it as more like the sound of the round stamped Imperial or Sovereign I used to play in my teens and begun to appreciate it more. But I am finding it difficult to get past the Prestige sound!

[RobWP]

I currently own a gold lacquer prestige, a silver Sovereign with trigger, and a Geneva Cardinal (and played extensively on a GVL before the cardinal).

I'm currently playing the gold prestige.

For me, it was the best candidate among the horns, both in terms of sound quality I am after, and response. Yes, the 6th partial is very high. I go full trigger on that partial most of the time, unless it's the 5th of the chord or something and needs to be a bit high.

In my experience, the Genevas play well, but the valves are impossibly stiff, even when broken in. The besson valves are just... buttery.

I agree with the comments that say a 0AL is likely to be too large. I think it's going to be the wrong piece for these horns. Not saying you can't play something big, but boy, that's a monster even for a horn the size of modern euphoniums.

Mike

I have to admit that having tested out several mouthpieces this past week, I've begun to realise why playing seems to have been such hard work for such a long time! The 0AL gives a very large, round sound, but boy is it hard work! At the moment, I've settled on the SM3UX but I've asked my supplier (who sent a SM4UXR which is too small for me) if they can send me a SM3UXR to try too. I want to see if it helps further in the top register without too much compromise in the lower register.

The Geneva valves are stiff. Interesting feedback about that still being the case once it's broken in. I asked the supplier about them and they said they had wanted to change the oil on them but ran out of time, but admitted they are still stiffer than the Prestige, as you say. Buttery would be the would be the word I'd use for them too.

I am tending towards the silver Prestige at the moment. The gold is lovely, although it seems to require a little more air. But sound-wise it sounds more like a solo instrument to me. The silver is more of a band instrument. A little more brilliance in the sound just makes it a little easier to ride the band when you need to.