1st post-- need some advice

[tampaworth]

FWIW, when I bought my Jinbao, the thought of investment didn't enter into my decision. If in the future something happens and I can no longer play, or I get rich and famous and can buy an Adams, I will find a deserving student and give the Chinese horn to him/her.

Pay it forward when you can. A great attitude our world could certainly use more of. Cheers!

[John the Theologian]

I wasn't so much thinking of it as an investment. I just needed to know what was reasonable to expect. I realize that no one can predict the value of a horn and if the stencils are as good as everyone is finding them, it would likely have some value years from now. I also know that my wife is surely going to ask that question of me.

[tampaworth]

I think that if product quality continues to improve as it has, acceptance of the Chinese instruments will grow and we will see a rise in the current bargain basement prices. Can you imagine the effect if a professional ever came out and ensorsed one of them? It happened with Japan. Maybe in the future who knows. The 321 will hold its value. All in all I think it would be a wash. Whatever makes you feel good as a player keeping in mind the difference in bore sizes and 3+1 vs in line. Enjoy!

[DaveBj]

I think that if product quality continues to improve as it has, acceptance of the Chinese instruments will grow and we will see a rise in the current bargain basement prices. Can you imagine the effect if a professional ever came out and ensorsed one of them? It happened with Japan. Maybe in the future who knows. The 321 will hold its value. All in all I think it would be a wash. Whatever makes you feel good as a player keeping in mind the difference in bore sizes and 3+1 vs in line. Enjoy!

I think you could well be correct. I'm glad I got mine when I did -- between when they got all the problems fixed and when they discover they could be charging a lot more for their product than what they are. And regardless of my endorsement of the Jinbao horns (whatever that's worth), your last line is completely on target. OP should go with whatever cranks his tractor the best.

[ghmerrill]

There's a point in the evolution of every product line when the old is compelled to give way to the new (where new may mean new in terms of innovations and enhanced features, or it may simply mean new product with the same features as the old but much more economically offered). In recent memory this has happened in such areas as optics and machine tools. It is now happening in the area of musical instruments.

There is -- and there should be -- a strong resistance to the replacement of the old (the tried and the true) with the new. But at some point the new become better than the old. At what stage is this process in the case of brass instruments? I would say that it's in the "median" stage, and thus it is still very reasonable for people to choose the old over the new; and likewise reasonable for some to choose the new over the old. That's all about your goals, requirements, costs, willingness to take some risk, etc.

Several years ago I decided to buy a serious band saw. I'd sold a couple of motorcycles (one a BMW) and had sufficient cash on hand to buy just about anything I wanted. So I looked in a very focused way at features and performance, carefully comparing these across a number of products manufactured in the US, Europe, and China. It would have been an easy decision to throw top money at one of the "top" brands like Laguna. But careful investigation and comparison of features (including things like customer service) pulled me away from that. Ultimately I went for a Grizzly saw, at a significantly lower cost, that I have been extremely happy with, and extraordinarily happy with in in terms of performance and customer service. I do not think that there is a saw I would replace it with if I had unlimited funds to do so.

This is not quite the case with the current state of the Chinese instruments -- at least generally. But I think it is the case in terms of certain specific products, and it is very close to being the case in terms of a lot of products.

It's not the best choice for everyone in every circumstance. But it's a choice that has to be considered seriously.

I really don' know about the "holding value" argument since in terms of certain things (tools, musical instruments, and firearms), that argument never plays a role in my decisions. And of course as any product becomes more easily accessible at a lower cost, it will not "hold it's value" quite as well. But I just don't consider that when I'm thinking of what I want to blow into on a continuing basis.

[John the Theologian]

Thanks for all the advice about the issue of holding value. I appreciate it. The issue of holding value isn't a huge one, but has to be considered.

Does anyone have any insights into moving to a large bore horn at my age?

John

[ghmerrill]

Thanks for all the advice about the issue of holding value. I appreciate it. The issue of holding value isn't a huge one, but has to be considered.

Does anyone have any insights into moving to a large bore horn at my age?

John

I don't think it has anything to do with age. I can say that I feel more comfortable with a smaller bore horn -- and consequently that I make better music with it.

If you don't have a compelling reason to move to horn of a certain bore? Why even consider it?

[John the Theologian]

I remember a number of years ago when I tried a King 2280, which I believe, is about the same bore size as the Jinbao that I really liked its sound. If age isn't a big factor, I'm assuming I would like the large bore euphonium. I'm also assuming that trying out locally the Yamaha, if possible (I believe it's the 642?), on which the Jinbao is based, would give me some idea of how the larger bore would sound. I realize that the horns aren't identical, but if the bores are similar, I should get some idea. Does anyone else have any idea of any other horns to try to get some feel of how I would sound today on a larger bore horn? I probably only have limited options, but perhaps there are a few other horns besides the Yammie on which the Jinbao is based that I could try before actually having something like a Mack shipped for trial period.

John

[ghmerrill]

Actually my previous response was idiotic -- though the advice is still pretty good. I've been so absorbed with the tuba recently, and switching from a fairly large bore BBb back to a fairly standard bore EEb, that it was that I was referring to. In terms of euphoniums, I do indeed prefer a large bore since from my "tuba perspective" they are all "small".

Do keep in mind that Tom's return policy on that particular instrument is that if you aren't entirely satisfied, you get all your money back -- including shipping. I know you aren't anxious to go this way without thinking it would actually be good, but it may in the end be the best approach for you.

[DaveBj]

Thanks for all the advice about the issue of holding value. I appreciate it. The issue of holding value isn't a huge one, but has to be considered.

Does anyone have any insights into moving to a large bore horn at my age?

John

You didn't specify your age, but I was 65 when I went from the old Conn to the larger-bore Jinbao, and the results have been nothing but good. I agree with Gary -- age is not an issue.

[John the Theologian]

As I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread, I'm 63-- just turned 63 a couple of weeks ago. Does anyone have any additional insights into which other brands of horns might approximate the bore size of the Jinbao to give me some similar idea of how I might sound on the Mack or other stencil? It's been quite a few years since I've tried the larger horns.

John

[RickF]

Willson 2900, Yamaha 641 & 642, Stirling, and Adams euphoniums all have very close to the same bore of .590" or .591". The Miraphone 5050 has a bore of .610". I think the Besson pro-level horns are still at .580" but not positive.

[John the Theologian]

Thanks, that's very helpful info.

John

[davewerden]

FYI, I moved all the BBb, CC, and EEb tuba talk here:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...d-Why?p=120197

[bearphonium]

A little late to the party here...from my recent perusals of several different sales sites, the going rate for a YEP 321 is between $1000-$1500 depending on age and condition. I am primarily a tuba player (despite my forum name!) and found that a large bore horn was really more my cup of tea, and picked up a Conn 19I for $850.00 off EBay. Both of my horns (tuba is a VMI 201) are "in-line four" (just like my motorcycle, but I digress) and really give me no problems.

The advantage to buying a clone is price; the disadvantage is that the quality of some horns is still suspect, and parts can be hard to come by unless you're able to modify the more available parts to your horn. (I will leave the political argument out of it. If you want some entertainment, take a look at the Tubenet Forum on Chinese horns...) The other advantage, as I see it, is that you could find that you really like the 3+1 large bore lineup. One of my good friends got a YEP 642 at the age of 68 and she just loves it (she is one of those "power" euphonium players, too...whoda guessed?); I believe she uses a mid sized Shilke mouthpiece like the 51D on it.

My 2 cents, YMMV