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Thread: False tones

  1. #1

    False tones

    Hi Everyone - I'm not sure if this belongs here or not, so please feel free to move, moderators. This is a playing exercises question.

    My question for everyone has to do with false tones in the low register for euphonium. Most of the private lessons I took growing was from a former student of Byron Pebbles, former trombonist with the LA Philharmonic. In developing the low register, he certainly recommended the Arban's interval exercises, but he also said that if you really wanted to supercharge your low register, try playing many of those low notes (we are talking the low F-low C above pedal Bb) as false tones. For example, if you wanted to play the low F which would ordinarily be first position with trigger (or 4th valve on euphonium), try to play the note in first position without the trigger (which would mean trying to play it open without the 4th valve). Similarly, for the Eb, you would try to make the false tone using the 1st valve only, no 4th valve. At first the false tones don't sound great, but over time, on trombone at least, I could get them sounding somewhat passable. I used to play bass trombone in my former life also, and this approach really did supercharge that register. I have found I can do it reasonably well on any trombone including small bore instruments, but that it is just about impossible (for me at least) on euphonium. Does the conical nature of the instrument and the resultant air stream make this more difficult or am I doing something wrong?

    Granted, I can still reap the benefits of just doing it on the trombone, and then the results should transfer to euphonium, but I'm at a loss as to why I can't seemingly do it at all on the euphonium.

    Any suggestions or insights would be very much appreciated - thanks in advance!
    Last edited by euphdude; 04-19-2023 at 08:51 AM.
    - Scott

    Euphoniums: Dillon 967, Monzani MZEP-1150S, Dillon 1067 (kid’s horn)
    Bass Trombones: Greenhoe GB5-3G, Getzen 1052FDR, JP232
    King Jiggs P-bone

  2. #2
    James Gourlay demonstrated those for us (using my "Schiller Elite") several years ago. I couldn't get them to work on that same horn, but I can get a solid low Eb (open, no valves) on my oval.
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

  3. #3
    I did a video that talks about this. Perhaps it will be helpful:

    https://youtu.be/v_60YBoRnro

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  4. #4
    Thanks so much Dave - I will try approaching this the way you did in terms of a descending scale like you demonstrated. Hopefully from there I can work up to hitting the false tone notes as a part of the Arban's interval exercises. Do you have any sense on why I'm experiencing such a huge difference in difficulty for euphonium versus trombone? I've managed to squeak out an Eb once for just a second or two on euph, and I can easily do it and can sustain any of those notes on trombone. I see you pressed the first valve for the false tone low C. On trombone I would use the exact same slide position for each of the notes without the F-attachment down to the C (which on the F side is on the very end of the slide and even then, it is somewhat sharp).
    Last edited by euphdude; 04-19-2023 at 02:27 PM.
    - Scott

    Euphoniums: Dillon 967, Monzani MZEP-1150S, Dillon 1067 (kid’s horn)
    Bass Trombones: Greenhoe GB5-3G, Getzen 1052FDR, JP232
    King Jiggs P-bone

  5. #5
    Update: I tried Dave’s approach exactly as he did and it totally works! Wow! Thanks again for providing that excellent video Dave.

    But I have to say I’m more confused now than ever because I still don’t understand why my trombone approach doesn’t work on euphonium. I still can’t lip the false tone F and can barely do the E natural on the open horn - remember, the point of me doing this isn’t to get the extra notes, but to increase the fullness of sound of those notes when I employ the 4th valve as your ordinarily would. Although my initial results show that it does seem to be working to increase the fullness of my sound on those notes, the difference in blowing resistance is huge, as you are producing the false tones on a completely open horn - and when you start adding say 1+4 to get the Eb, the blow is now completely different. Although I was able to hit the low C and low B on the open horn also using false tones, adding the 1st valve like Dave did helped add extra tubing to make the difference in blow less apparent. What I liked about my old trombone approach is I was adding tubing by moving the slide for each note just as if I was using the F attachment for the note, so the difference in blow wasn’t as pronounced. Still, even if I don’t understand why, I’m beyond thrilled that I have an approach to now play these notes on euphonium.

    Now I’ve gotta get back to the practice room - cheers folks!
    - Scott

    Euphoniums: Dillon 967, Monzani MZEP-1150S, Dillon 1067 (kid’s horn)
    Bass Trombones: Greenhoe GB5-3G, Getzen 1052FDR, JP232
    King Jiggs P-bone

  6. #6
    So uhh...I don't have any experience on a modern Euphonium, and I definitely have no experience doing this with a Trombone, but the way that "useful" false tones work is that the horn functions as a 1/3 tube. So just like how some instruments are half-tube instruments (Trumpet, Cornet, some Mellophones) and don't have a pedal tone, other instruments have no usable false tone. At least not in a way that I would consider useful. It's definitely to be expected that a Trombone and Euphonium will behave completely differently in this manner.

    For instruments with a "useful" false tone the behavior is like this:
    You play 2nd partial (concert Bb) down to 13 (concert F). Then you have the following false tones chromatically. Open (Eb), 2 (D), 1 (C#), 12 (C), 23 (B natural). That brings you to 1st partial pedal Bb. You might be tempted to play that on 13, but it won't play in tune.

    The instruments that I have which are capable of this behavior are all fairly extreme in attributes. My two largest ovalform things and my Tenor Sousaphone have easy false tones. A few of my other instruments can do it, but not nearly as easily. Most "normal" instruments will play a concert C# on open, at best.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  7. #7
    FWIW...

    I'm not sure if false tones fit neatly into scientific expectations. Waaaaay back when I was in college, I roomed with a trumpet player and would noodle on his trumpet now and then. It was frustrating to try to play a pedal C because it was very flat. With practice, I could nearly lip it to pitch. But during the 6 weeks I had trumpet techniques class I was using a borrowed cornet. On the cornet, I could easily play the pedal C with lipping up.

    My American euphoniums (front valve, bore around .560) could do false tones more easily than my Besson/Sterling/Adams euphoniums. In the case of these horns, the conical/cylindrical ratio should have been identical in that each type was totally conical except for the valve section and tuning slide throw.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  8. #8
    It's not conical bore percentage or bore size that causes/allows it. It's something to do with the rate of bore expansion at a certain point. I wish I could pin point it down to something more specific than that since that would require me to be very rich. A quick run down on the 5I does indicate that you can provoke improved behavior by increasing throat size per cup depth, but I don't have enough variables to be more specific than that. Changing the mouthpiece in this way is not useful for instruments where that variable determines intonation, so that's a problem. In any event, I think it's sufficient to say that instruments with very different attributes should not be expected to have matching false tone behavior.

    I hadn't thought of it before, but for the few half-tube instruments where that pedal C can be ripped into tune, the behavior exactly matches the false tone. It works until low G (13), at which point it goes miserably flat or fails entirely. Rotary Trumpet and some Cornets will do that. Why? Wish I knew.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

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