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Thread: Query: Alto Horn vs Tenor

  1. #1

    Query: Alto Horn vs Tenor

    I am writing to pose a question, hoping to learn from the community.

    I play a Besson New Standard alto horn, circa 1960. The instrument was rebuilt and silvered by Chuck McAlexander/BrassLab. For years, I have thought that the distinction between alto horn and tenor horn was one of nomenclature. Browsing listings for used horns just now, I noticed separate listings for each - alto/tenor - and the horns had clear differences (bore/bell size). Please help me understand the difference/distinctions between these horns, if in fact there is one.

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    Stephen Haynes

    Schilke XA1 cornet
    Schilke soprano cornet
    Schilke flugelhorn
    Schilke X4L trumpet

    Besson New Standard Alto Horn
    Willson Solo Alto
    and a host of vintage cornets and flugelhorns

    https://www.schilkemusic.com/stephen-haynes/

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Hidden Valley, AZ
    Posts
    1,034
    Generally, altos are in Eb and tenors in Bb. Over here, at least.

    Others can comment on other countries.
    Last edited by highpitch; 03-24-2023 at 04:35 PM.

  3. Honestly it's a mess. I wouldn't mind highpitch's claim, but of course it's easy to find contrary examples:
    https://www.besson.com/en/instruments/tenor-horns/
    ...all in Eb.
    In the brass band word the I think the Eb is called a 'tenor' by and large.

    Honestly my vote would be to just stop using the 'vocal' adjectives for any of the 'baritones', 'alto', and 'tenor' horn.
    Everyone agrees what a euph is--keep that word.
    Beyond that we'd get further is we simply described the pitch of the brass tube and how conical/cylindrical the tubing is.

    Not to denigrate any of these instruments: I play a Besson Eb and it brings both me and my long-suffering audience the most joy out of anything in my collection.
    "Come for dinner, and bring the Smurf Tuba."
    Will do.

  4. #4
    In Commonwealth countries where British Brass Bands are active, the 6.5'Eb Saxhorn derivative is called an Eb Tenor Horn. This is because the high Eb instruments are called soprano and the high Bb instruments can't be the same thing, right? So the high 4.5'Bb instruments are alto and that leaves tenor. Of course, you never hear them call it a Bb Alto Trombone, but I digress.

    In the US, the 6.5' Eb Horns were traditionally called Alto Horns because they clearly play the alto part, but also because American naming conventions are more like German, and don't classify instrument voices by pitch. Just like you can have Bb Tenorhorns and Bb Baritones in Europe, we did the same thing. There's also never been any clear attempt to designate a voice classification for the 4.5'Bb horns.

    In more modern times, I typically refer to a British style instrument as an Eb Tenor Horn, and the other instruments as Alto Horns. This is most suitable for their original designations, and covers any differences. What sort of differences?

    So first off, a Bb Tenorhorn and an Eb Tenor Horn aren't even related in any way. It is customary, according to the German YouTube comment police, to use "Tenorhorn" (no space) when discussing the instrument in 9'Bb. While this instrument has somehow vanished into the ether, in European military bands where this instrument was used, it was typically the lead/soloist Tenor. Really far back, there was actually two different ovalform instruments referred to as "Tenorhorn". There was the normal Baßflugelhorn and the smaller Althorn in B (Bb Altohorn). Bb Altohorn is more like the British Baritone Horn, but still not exactly the same. So again, German nomenclature does not designate voices by instrument pitch.

    American Alto Horns do have some differences, sort of. Way back in the day, highschoolers were actually expected to have some transposition skills. You can find really old Altos in Eb, with huge .500" bore and in both upright and front-action designs. Eventually, things got a little less crazy and horns started to be designed in F with an extra tuning slide for Eb. Bore size started to diminish down to a hardly lacking .468". Later on into the 70s as the Alto Horn died off, you start seeing even smaller horns. The key difference for the horns in F is that they're not comfortable with the full-size mouthpieces that the British Eb instruments use. Granted, a small Alto Horn mouthpiece is still huge compared to a French Horn mouthpiece, and most players didn't appreciate that. Hence, the rise of the Marching Mellophone and attempts at other crazy failures.

    British Eb Tenor Horns have come in a variety of designs over the years, but they're almost always top-action upright (conformity). Bore size is typically smaller than what you find on American Horns, and the mouthpieces are usually larger/deeper. As far as bell sizes, I've never bothered keeping track of that. Probably never very far 8" either direction.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  5. "...Really far back, there was actually two different ovalform instruments referred to as "Tenorhorn". There was the normal Baßflugelhorn and the smaller Althorn in B (Bb Altohorn)..."
    The "Althorn in B" was never in common use in here in Germany. But we have two different Bb oval horns, the Tenorhorn (small bore, mostly three valves and written in treble clef Bb) and the Bariton(horn) (medium or big bore, wider tubing and mostly four valves, mostly written in concert bass clef).
    The alto register was traditionally played on french horn style Eb horns, often with right hand valves, or oval altos in Eb. But in the last 50 years they all vanished and are replaced by proper french horns. Or the too big herd of alto saxophones have to play the part...

    The Tenor term for Eb horns is only used in the UK based band music.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Charmer View Post
    The "Althorn in B" was never in common use in here in Germany.
    Do you happen to know what these horns were ever used for, if anything? They seem to come up for sale very often, but I've never seen one being used in a photo. Not even in the most ragtag of WW1 bands...

    I did once see on YouTube, a German military band performing a stage show with French Horns, Circular Alto Horns, and Alto Saxophones all together, but no ovalform altos. I guess someone thinks it looks cool to march with those things.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  7. I never saw a "Althorn in B" in real live, just in some book some time ago. And not remembering the book too much it may have been some of those compilations of half-knowledge you can find quite often. (Don't ask about the misinformations about the French C Tuba...!)
    The oval Eb alto you can find in some older band pictures, but mostly before WW2, so I don't think they were made any longer. The one I have is from the 1920s (Wilhelm Riedl, Markneukirchen)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    191
    I do believe I own a "Althorn in B", made by Anton Hüller from Graslitz in the early 20th century. It is not really playable, but judging by what does come out of it, I would say it is pitched in/near B-flat (B in German). It fits a trombone mouthpiece with small shank. This is the one in my profile picture.
    I recently also bought a similar instrument on eBay, made by Auguste Henri Rott from Prague before 1868. From the pictures, I mistook it for an Alto (sax)horn in E-Flat, but when I received it I noticed it played in C. It fits a trombone/Euphonium mouthpiece with medium shank (quite a bit larger than I expected). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utM92eUZWDU
    Last edited by MarChant; 03-27-2023 at 11:37 AM.

  9. With horns that old it is difficult with the names. Who named it and who misunderstood it? A hint may be found in old band music in the way parts are named. I think I saw Althorn in B in some 1900-1920 band arrangements, which of course remained unplayed like c-saxophone and octavin.
    In the 19th century there was no clear nomenclature for the instruments and every maker tried to protect his invention by some patent so the next maker had to invent another feature AND another name for it.
    When instruments are sold today by folks outside the musical knowledge the names get even more funny. I have heard the words "big trumpet" often enough when holding a tuba and with the comments on the ophicleide I could write a funny book!

  10. #10
    There's a whole wonderful world of old timey catalogs which helps with naming things. Of course, trying to translate those names between languages can be a bit of a problem. Naming conventions between English and German are mostly compatible, but not so with other languages. As it pertains to the OP, English (USA) doesn't even translate to English (UK), very well.

    I'm pretty fond of my Bb Alto, but if it had always been some kind of fad instrument like the C Sax and Ballad Horn, I wouldn't be surprised. It's an instrument that kinda sounds like a British Baritone Horn, but definitely isn't. It doesn't have the soloist capacity of a real Bb Tenorhorn, nor does it blend as well. It doesn't have the punch of a Trombone, nor does it sound like one. It does live up to its namesake as having some ability as an alto instrument, and you can totally play it like a Bb Horn, but it doesn't have the range to do so beyond marching band music (regardless of mouthpiece). And no, it doesn't sound like a Wagnertuba. So what does this instrument do in a European brass band? Probably the same thing that all of the other useless instruments do.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

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