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Thread: Help! - Euphonium always FLAT.

  1. Help! - Euphonium always FLAT.

    I sure hope you all can help me. I played the Euphonium (Yamaha YEP-321s) in high school, and after a gap of a few DECADES, I’ve taken it up again. I started with a Jupiter 700 student model, then went to a rented Y321 (my old love), and now I’ve purchased a John Packer 274S, which I LOVE. It’s really opened up my playing, and I’m now playing in TWO community bands and progressing quickly. I play a Denis Wick 4AL mouthpiece, which seems to be GREAT, except for the following problem.

    PROBLEM : I have found the the horn is a bit flat (for me) in all registers - worse in the main playing range (D in staff to D above). I *must* have all the tuning slides ALL THE WAY in at *all* times, and lip everything up some. This is true even when using a tuner, as well as with the bands. It is tolerable, but only just barely. I’d TOTALLY be interested in getting something like a shorter mouthpiece, or making mods to the horn. My Tuba player says he has CUT tubings before on some of his tubas (yikes!), but I’d never do that myself. I looked around quite a bit on the internet, and couldn’t find ANYTHING about it. I know that flugelhorns often have an adjustable mouthpiece stem for just this purpose. Also, much like my YEP321 but even WORSE, the second valve is WAY flat, like for concert A and E. It sometimes measures as a "sharp Ab" instead of a "flat A-nat". I have taken to playing sustained notes with the 4th valve, or better yet with 1+3, to get this note closer to in tune. The quality is much worse than just with 2nd, but the tuning is WAY closer. Help!!!!

    I’d definitely be willing to have the horn cut and re-welded, if that is even a thing. Have you ever heard of such a thing? Would they do the mouthpiece stem end, or somewhere else along the way? I think the main horn could be shortened quite a bit, and the second valve even more….

    Alternatively, is there a way to get a shorter-shanked mouthpiece? I love the one I have, but would give it up for better tuning. I need HELP!

    What are my options?

    Thanks so much for any help you can give,

    David Jackson
    Principal Euphoniumist (lol)
    Greenfield Concert Band
    South Milwaukee Municipal Band

  2. #2
    Welcome to the forum! Your post was delayed a bit because of an automatic spam filter that wasn't sure it was OK. It might be due to the double hyphen in the title. I'll change that.

    This flatness is not the usual experience for sure. A mouthpiece shank can be cut down on a lathe, but I wouldn't go there just yet.

    Have a trombone player try the horn with your mouthpiece. It's best if the trombonist is used to a mouthpiece that wide (1" cup diameter, roughly). You could also have your tuba friend try it with your mouthpiece. If they can tune normally on several notes, then the problem may be your chops getting back into the action. I would try a 6-1/2AL for a while and see if that tunes up for you. As your chops get stronger, you can try moving back to the 4.

    If it is out of tune when others play it, then a repair tech needs to look at it. There may be something stuck inside or there could be a leak or...

    This may or may not be a related anecdote: in public school I would get an "A" at state contest, except for once in 10th grade. When we got to the venue and I warmed up with the pianist, I could not get in tune. If I adjusted my Bb, then other notes were off. In general, I could not center anything. A think I got a C- when I finally played, and that may have been a gift. Our warmup room was the physics classroom. I found a rubber hose and pushed it down the bell...until it stopped partway into the bottom bow. Then I realized my bottle of valve oil was missing. A little beating on the upside down horn produced my valve oil. Food for thought!
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Valley City, North Dakota, USA
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    1,314
    I had a long gap in my playing and when I purchased my first compensating horn (not that the compensating system necessarily had anything to do with it), I was extremely flat…even with the tuning slide all the way in.

    I did mess around with a few different mouthpieces…however… as I played more, the problem went away. Leading me to believe that the issue was with ME.

    It certainly isn’t out of the realm of possibility that your horn is out of spec. Probably the easiest way to find out is to have another (preferably seasoned) euph player try the horn and see if they have the same issue.
    Groups
    Valley City Community Band
    Valley City State University Concert Band
    2024 North Dakota Intercollegiate Band (you're never too old!)


    Larry Herzog Jr.

    All things EUPHONIUM! Guilded server

  4. #4
    I agree the problem will go away in time. I think you should spend some time buzzing your mouthpiece, buzzing melodies that you know. It's the best way to work on pitch and support. You'll be able to tell if you aren't supporting the notes easier on the mouthpiece than you can on an instrument (that covers up problems)

    Congrats on the 274! They are amazing instruments

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
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    384
    Playing on the flat side may be a common thing with JP horns: I bought a used (but practically new) 373 JP Packer baritone a few years ago: it sounded flat, not just the overall pitch, but also by operating the individual pistons. I cut all the slides, 1st, 3rd and main by about 15mm and the 2nd by 5mm per leg. Now it sounds perfectly in tune with the exception of the Eb and Ab which are slightly flat due to the length of the compensating tube of the 2nd piston which is too long (in my opinion). I also like the sound, projection and ease of response. I use a modified K&G 4B mouthpiece myself: deeper and wider cup which I alternate with a modified K&G T4C and SM4M. To gain something you can thin the outside of the shank of the mouthpiece so that it penetrates deeper into the receiver ( there is absolutely nothing to cut here). The operation is quite simple (you need a drill, a vice and some abrasive paper or cloth): the gain is not much, but it could be enough.
    2007 Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone, 4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; 1973 Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Valley City, North Dakota, USA
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    1,314
    Quote Originally Posted by franz View Post
    Playing on the flat side may be a common thing with JP horns:
    I’ve played on four, different JP horns (two of which I own), and that hasn’t been my experience. (My “issues” were resolved on a Schiller horn before I owned or played any JP horns.)

    I’d definitely heed the above advise before making any changes to your horn. As I said before, it’s not out of the realm of possibility for your horn to be out of spec…but given your time away from playing, it is more likely to be you.
    Groups
    Valley City Community Band
    Valley City State University Concert Band
    2024 North Dakota Intercollegiate Band (you're never too old!)


    Larry Herzog Jr.

    All things EUPHONIUM! Guilded server

  7. #7
    Gonna second something that has already been said and check results with some other mouthpieces, preferably not of the same brand. Compare insertion depths. For whatever reason, there is a lot of difference in what manufacturers are calling large shank. Depends on the horn, but it is entirely possible to cause dramatic intonation issues with only a small difference in gap. Pretty sure that modern Euphoniums aren't super sensitive to this sort of thing, but heck. It has to be something.

    Somehow or other, I have failed to acquire a single large shank instrument, but during some very niche testing, I discovered that it only takes +~4mm gap to wreck 8th partial on a medium shank Baritone. This is a very hateful instrument, so this level of result shouldn't be normal.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    1,003
    I have had to cut down almost every horn I have owned...and I've owned a few.
    I spend far more time than the typical euphonium player in the upper register, since I play horn parts on euphonium in a brass quintet. One might think I'd tend toward sharpness, but the opposite is true.
    Moral of the story: Some people play inherently sharp and need to pull out, and some players play inherently flat. So as long as you have good equipment, proper air movement, and a decent embouchure, don't sweat it.
    Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meter CW)
    Formerly Principal Euphonium in a whole
    bunch of groups, now just a schlub.
    Shires Q41, Yamaha 321, 621 Baritone
    Wick 4AL, Wessex 4Y, or whatever I grab.
    Conn 50H trombone, Blue P-bone
    www.soundcloud.com/jweuph

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Valley City, North Dakota, USA
    Posts
    1,314
    You’ve cut down your Shires? (Or is that one of the few exceptions?)
    Groups
    Valley City Community Band
    Valley City State University Concert Band
    2024 North Dakota Intercollegiate Band (you're never too old!)


    Larry Herzog Jr.

    All things EUPHONIUM! Guilded server

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    1,003
    Quote Originally Posted by iMav View Post
    You’ve cut down your Shires? (Or is that one of the few exceptions?)
    Yes, I had the Q41 cut a quarter-inch. Same with the Neo. The 5050 I had came with a known long MTS, so Miraphone sent me another. The ones I didn't have cut were the Sovereign 968 and a Yamaha 641. Of course, my Yamaha 321 has no pitch issues whatsoever.
    I'm seriously thinking about scoring a fifth valve add-on and having interchangeable leadpipes or receivers.

    REMINDER TO ALL: Euphoniums have to be mostly mass produced and are therefore created for a "typical" player. Since nobody is a "typical" player, all players will have to compromise on some aspect of playing any horn. Unless you are extremely fortunate, your euphonium purchase will be made using a linear compensatory purchasing scheme:
    *You consider numerous attributes/benefits when buying a euphonium.
    *Some of those product attributes/benefits are more important than others, so you weight the more important attributes more heavily in your brain.
    *You derive a weighted-average score for each brand of euphonium that you try.
    *The euphonium with the highest weighted-average score is the one you purchase.
    *This process is compensatory in that high scores in some attributes/benefits can offset low scores in other attributes/benefits (This pattern holds whether the euphonium you purchase is compensating or not. Your buying process is compensatory )
    *This process is linear in that you mentally formulate an equation in the form of W1B1+W2B2+W3B3...+WnXn, where the Ws are the weights you assign to different attributes/benefits, and the Xs are the scores you give the euphonium in each attribute/benefit. In this case if you assign a score of zero in any attribute/benefit, it does not necessarily rule the brand out.
    With respect to the currrent situation, we likely all assign the highest weight to tone quality and a very low weight to length of the tuning slide, so a euphonium with great tone quality will still be in play for your purchase even if you need to have the tuning slide cut.
    This is only one of several buying schemes consumers use when making purchases. There are a few others, but I don't want to get too deep into the woods here.
    And you thought you were bad at math, and there you go with a whole bunch of Xs and Ws in a linear equation...
    Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meter CW)
    Formerly Principal Euphonium in a whole
    bunch of groups, now just a schlub.
    Shires Q41, Yamaha 321, 621 Baritone
    Wick 4AL, Wessex 4Y, or whatever I grab.
    Conn 50H trombone, Blue P-bone
    www.soundcloud.com/jweuph

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