Adams Sonic with 5th Valve

[ann reid]

Any opinions about the ADAMS 5 Valve that has appeared on FaceBook and Instagram today?

Wondering if this would be the compromise horn I’ve been wondering about?

[guidocorona]

Hi Ann, could you post links to the instagram and facebook pages where you found this Adams 5-valver?

Best, Guido

[davewerden]

You can find this on the Adams Brass FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/AdamsBrass

The text on the post says:

What about this innovative 5th-valve-euphonium we built for Matthew Summers?
The extra rotary valve assures tuning like a bass trombone Gb valve.

Matthew is just now retiring from the Marine Band. Here are the photos:

[daruby]

Hi all,

Matthew Summers was at the Adams factory at the same time I was last summer to drop off my E3 for its modifications. He was in deep discussion with Miel Adams (which I was able to observe and lightly participate in) about this very horn. The idea to graft in a Gb attachment on a rotary valve between the 3rd valve and the 4th valve on a non-compensating Sonic was discussed and mocked up there. Miel Adams had an "in-process" Sonic dismantled and a rotary F attachment housing mocked up in the short distance available to make the Gb attachment be independent as it would be on most Bass Trombones. Matt's motivation was not only to have this unique instrument mirror the playing characteristics of the bass trombone he plays when not in the Marine Corp Band, but also to reduce valve mass (by eliminating extra inch of length on 1-2-3) and to make the horn more free blowing. Plus he now can get down to a real double pedal Bb.

It is great to see this horn now and Matt will be playing it at the US Army Band Tuba and Euphonium Conference (Workshop?) in a few short weeks. While not an entirely new idea, Matt is trying to eliminate the weight of valve action on 1-2-3 and make a free blowing horn that has great low range response while using the options available with the 5 valve combinations to deal with the inherent intonation issues.

While I am not sure this will be widely accepted, I am sure he will make the most of this unique horn.

Doug

[DaveBj]

I think I would like it. I could never afford one, but I do believe I would like it.

[dsurkin]

[snip]Matthew Summers was at the Adams factory at the same time I was last summer to drop off my E3 for its modifications. He was in deep discussion with Miel Adams (which I was able to observe and lightly participate in) about this very horn. The idea to graft in a Gb attachment on a rotary valve between the 3rd valve and the 4th valve on a non-compensating Sonic [snip]

Do you have any idea of what fingerings would be used?

[daruby]

The 5th valve is equivalent to a 2-3 combo. I am completely in the dark how one would use it, but if I played bass trombone, it would be more apparent.

[davewerden]

Do you have any idea of what fingerings would be used?

I think we can infer some fingerings. The extra slide is roughly the same as 23, which is a half step shorter than the 4th valve slide. So I might assume that if I need 234 for a low concert D on a non comp, then I might need 13+rotor with the new system. Some similar math might yield a clue or two.

[John Morgan]

Now this is interesting. Doug, do you say this was fabricated with the Sonic model, a non-compensating horn? Looks like it from Dave's pictures.

On a trombone with an F attachment, the trigger gives you an F (1st position), and if you want an Eb below the staff, then you use trigger and 3rd position, but it is a long 3rd position! Without the F attachment, the slide has 7 positions. With the F attachment, the slide has only 6 positions, so the 2nd position or 3rd position without the F attachment are both "shorter" than the 2nd and 3rd positions with the F attachment. On a bass trombone with two triggers, the second trigger usually causes you to move the slide positions even further out for various notes. With two triggers employed, the slide has only 5 positions.

So, with this valve, it seems there would not be a good way to get notes in tune when using the 5th valve with other valves. If the horn were compensated, then it could be better, but maybe not as good as a 4 valve compensating horn.

Or would you just have to use an entirely different set of fingerings when employing the 5th valve? (Like you have to use 234 to get low D on a non-compensating horn, instead of 124 which you would use on a compensating horn.)

Guess I don't quite know how this works. Would be interesting to find out.

[daruby]

It works like a bass trombone with independent F and Gb attachments. The 4th valve is still a non compensated F attachment and the 5th valve is a non-compensated Gb (2-3) attachment. You can use 4 and 5 together also. Lots of optional fingerings. BUT, I don't really know how it works.

[58mark]

I'm not sure about the intonation of the Gb valve the reason it works on the bass trombone is the natural method of endless adjustments

I grafted a long whole step rotor onto a king 2280 and am very pleased with the results. The main 4 valves are lighter and quicker and shorter than most compensating euphs, and the tuba player side of me appreciates the main 4 valves being all in the right hand

The only downside, and the reason I own both a Packer 274 and a adams E3, is the king has a unique tone that just doesn't fit in with most people's concept of what a euphonium should sound like. It's not bad, just different

[Richard III]

The only downside, and the reason I own both a Packer 274 and a adams E3, is the king has a unique tone that just doesn't fit in with most people's concept of what a euphonium should sound like. It's not bad, just different

I had a laugh at this. It is funny how conventions in sound occur. I think many compensating euphoniums sound dull and muted. The same goes for french horns played with too much right hand to deep in the bell. But convention drives what people expect and are used to. Personally I like a full resonant sound. Then we could talk about trumpets too where they are overly braced and you lose overtones and a full spectrum and it becomes "the" sound that people want.

[Magikarp]

This is a very odd curate’s egg. I can’t help but wonder whether this is a “because they can” instrument, or designed for a very specific situation: surely an octave button would have been more beneficial?!

[davewerden]

This is a very odd curate’s egg. I can’t help but wonder whether this is a “because they can” instrument, or designed for a very specific situation: surely an octave button would have been more beneficial?!

In the realm of "curate's egg" we have to count a non-comp 4 valve euph, a comp 4 valve euph, and this example. They are all a compromise of one kind or another.

I don't think an octave valve would help much, because it would have the intonation fault direction of a non comp 4 valve, but on a wider scale. For example, the 1st valve tube adds roughly 12", enough to lower the Bb horn a whole step. But when you add the 4th valve to make the horn an F horn, the 12" length is insufficient. It would even more insufficient for a BBb horn (the euph + an octave valve).

[58mark]

I had a laugh at this. It is funny how conventions in sound occur. I think many compensating euphoniums sound dull and muted. The same goes for french horns played with too much right hand to deep in the bell. But convention drives what people expect and are used to. Personally I like a full resonant sound. Then we could talk about trumpets too where they are overly braced and you lose overtones and a full spectrum and it becomes "the" sound that people want.

While the Packer is more of a classic Besson tone, dark, rich ect.... The adams with the string bell has a vibrant sound that really sings

The king is an entirely different tone entirely, and it's hard to describe. Not bad, just different