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Thread: Adams Sonic with 5th Valve

  1. #11
    I'm not sure about the intonation of the Gb valve the reason it works on the bass trombone is the natural method of endless adjustments

    I grafted a long whole step rotor onto a king 2280 and am very pleased with the results. The main 4 valves are lighter and quicker and shorter than most compensating euphs, and the tuba player side of me appreciates the main 4 valves being all in the right hand

    The only downside, and the reason I own both a Packer 274 and a adams E3, is the king has a unique tone that just doesn't fit in with most people's concept of what a euphonium should sound like. It's not bad, just different

  2. The only downside, and the reason I own both a Packer 274 and a adams E3, is the king has a unique tone that just doesn't fit in with most people's concept of what a euphonium should sound like. It's not bad, just different
    I had a laugh at this. It is funny how conventions in sound occur. I think many compensating euphoniums sound dull and muted. The same goes for french horns played with too much right hand to deep in the bell. But convention drives what people expect and are used to. Personally I like a full resonant sound. Then we could talk about trumpets too where they are overly braced and you lose overtones and a full spectrum and it becomes "the" sound that people want.
    Richard


    King 1130 Flugabone
    King 2280 Euphonium
    King 10J Tuba
    Conn 22B Trumpet

  3. #13
    This is a very odd curate’s egg. I can’t help but wonder whether this is a “because they can” instrument, or designed for a very specific situation: surely an octave button would have been more beneficial?!
    Nowt

    Retired

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Magikarp View Post
    This is a very odd curate’s egg. I can’t help but wonder whether this is a “because they can” instrument, or designed for a very specific situation: surely an octave button would have been more beneficial?!
    In the realm of "curate's egg" we have to count a non-comp 4 valve euph, a comp 4 valve euph, and this example. They are all a compromise of one kind or another.

    I don't think an octave valve would help much, because it would have the intonation fault direction of a non comp 4 valve, but on a wider scale. For example, the 1st valve tube adds roughly 12", enough to lower the Bb horn a whole step. But when you add the 4th valve to make the horn an F horn, the 12" length is insufficient. It would even more insufficient for a BBb horn (the euph + an octave valve).
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard III View Post
    I had a laugh at this. It is funny how conventions in sound occur. I think many compensating euphoniums sound dull and muted. The same goes for french horns played with too much right hand to deep in the bell. But convention drives what people expect and are used to. Personally I like a full resonant sound. Then we could talk about trumpets too where they are overly braced and you lose overtones and a full spectrum and it becomes "the" sound that people want.
    While the Packer is more of a classic Besson tone, dark, rich ect.... The adams with the string bell has a vibrant sound that really sings

    The king is an entirely different tone entirely, and it's hard to describe. Not bad, just different

  6. Matt Summer's own words

    Since I have had the most exposure to this concept (there when the horn was being laid out), I wanted to see if I could add some of Matt Summer's own thoughts about the "why" of this design. Keep in mind he is also a Bass Trombone player and has MANY years (40+) playing compensating euphonium. In answer to "Why is this a non compensating instrument?", Matt replied on Facebook yesterday:

    "That’s the whole point to it.

    Fully chromatic where needed, without the significant backpressure that can be problematic for fast changes in tessatura.

    Think of a mid to high range line interspersed with FF low C pops. ( ex. Fountains of Rome)

    Getting loud low range to speak quickly on a compensating system can be problematic with limited time to set up for the note.

    This should speak much more easily.

    A happy side effect of the non-compensating system is that the valves have significantly less mass to move up and down.

    You can go with lighter springs, or opt for potentially faster action with the same power springs we’re used to with compensating instruments.

    This isn’t a replacement for compensating instruments, but an alternative that addresses some of the shortcomings (long valves/backpressure) inherent in the familiar designs.

    Yes. The low fingering are different from the octave above. But so are the fingerings between the octaves above.

    It’s a very slightly different mindset, but totally transparent until used.

    Sure, one can find combinations that are out of tune, but just like you don’t play a C with 1-3, there are several options that DO work.

    The benefit of the new non-comp valve set should be evident with the first fast passage."

    I hope this helps answer some questions. If not, contact Matt to get more feedback. He has a VERY clear idea of why this is good and I expect he has the creds to back it up.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  7. #17
    I find that Adams's selling of not only a professional non-comp instrument but building this prototype is very exciting - and possibly the next step of euphonium development will be non-comp instruments with triggers and fifth valves? I haven't played a non-comp instrument since the student instrument I started on, so couldn't speak to what one feels or sounds like
    Adams E2 | K&G 4D+

  8. #18
    Looking at matey’s reply on FB, it seems like it’s been made to address a very specific issue. I have played a piece (Maoriana by Arthur Butterworth FWIW) that called for a staccatissimo quaver pedal Db (low B for the bass clefs). My solution was to get an Eb bass to play it. Easier register, better sound, and I didn’t need to crucify myself over it. Innovation is great, but innovation for its own sake is really a bit gratuitous.

    I don’t know if I like the idea of a non compensating instrument but may take a trip to John Packer if they have one to see what it’s like. My experience of non-compensating instruments is limited to cheap and / or peculiar so not representative.

    Still, good to see some ideas being realised.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
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    Hi,

    It remembers me the Antoine Courtois n°166 with 5 valves. Perhaps the fingers chart will be nears it http://saxhorneuphoniumtuba.free.fr/..._5_pistons.jpg

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wizan View Post
    Hi,

    It remembers me the Antoine Courtois n°166 with 5 valves. Perhaps the fingers chart will be nears it http://saxhorneuphoniumtuba.free.fr/..._5_pistons.jpg
    So that must be pitched in C, right? Based on that, it appears the 5th valve is pitched longer than a standard 4th valve, which would be much different from the setup described in this thread. If this design were translated into a Bb euphonium, then the low Eb concert is played with 5th valve only (where my horn would use 14 and a non-comp would have to decide between a sharp 14 or a flat 124).

    It's interesting, though, and one of a great many systems that have been tried over the years.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

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