Adams Sonic with 5th Valve

[daruby]

Matt Summer's own words

Since I have had the most exposure to this concept (there when the horn was being laid out), I wanted to see if I could add some of Matt Summer's own thoughts about the "why" of this design. Keep in mind he is also a Bass Trombone player and has MANY years (40+) playing compensating euphonium. In answer to "Why is this a non compensating instrument?", Matt replied on Facebook yesterday:

"That’s the whole point to it.

Fully chromatic where needed, without the significant backpressure that can be problematic for fast changes in tessatura.

Think of a mid to high range line interspersed with FF low C pops. ( ex. Fountains of Rome)

Getting loud low range to speak quickly on a compensating system can be problematic with limited time to set up for the note.

This should speak much more easily.

A happy side effect of the non-compensating system is that the valves have significantly less mass to move up and down.

You can go with lighter springs, or opt for potentially faster action with the same power springs we’re used to with compensating instruments.

This isn’t a replacement for compensating instruments, but an alternative that addresses some of the shortcomings (long valves/backpressure) inherent in the familiar designs.

Yes. The low fingering are different from the octave above. But so are the fingerings between the octaves above.

It’s a very slightly different mindset, but totally transparent until used.

Sure, one can find combinations that are out of tune, but just like you don’t play a C with 1-3, there are several options that DO work.

The benefit of the new non-comp valve set should be evident with the first fast passage."

I hope this helps answer some questions. If not, contact Matt to get more feedback. He has a VERY clear idea of why this is good and I expect he has the creds to back it up.

Doug

[CousinJack]

I find that Adams's selling of not only a professional non-comp instrument but building this prototype is very exciting - and possibly the next step of euphonium development will be non-comp instruments with triggers and fifth valves? I haven't played a non-comp instrument since the student instrument I started on, so couldn't speak to what one feels or sounds like

[Magikarp]

Looking at matey’s reply on FB, it seems like it’s been made to address a very specific issue. I have played a piece (Maoriana by Arthur Butterworth FWIW) that called for a staccatissimo quaver pedal Db (low B for the bass clefs). My solution was to get an Eb bass to play it. Easier register, better sound, and I didn’t need to crucify myself over it. Innovation is great, but innovation for its own sake is really a bit gratuitous.

I don’t know if I like the idea of a non compensating instrument but may take a trip to John Packer if they have one to see what it’s like. My experience of non-compensating instruments is limited to cheap and / or peculiar so not representative.

Still, good to see some ideas being realised.

[wizan]

Hi,

It remembers me the Antoine Courtois n°166 with 5 valves. Perhaps the fingers chart will be nears it http://saxhorneuphoniumtuba.free.fr/..._5_pistons.jpg

[davewerden]

Hi,

It remembers me the Antoine Courtois n°166 with 5 valves. Perhaps the fingers chart will be nears it http://saxhorneuphoniumtuba.free.fr/..._5_pistons.jpg

So that must be pitched in C, right? Based on that, it appears the 5th valve is pitched longer than a standard 4th valve, which would be much different from the setup described in this thread. If this design were translated into a Bb euphonium, then the low Eb concert is played with 5th valve only (where my horn would use 14 and a non-comp would have to decide between a sharp 14 or a flat 124).

It's interesting, though, and one of a great many systems that have been tried over the years.

[euphisto]

The Adams with the G-flat attachment is interesting. I assume that the G-flat attachment and the fourth valve would produce a low D. Then the following fingerings for the rest of the low notes, perhaps (in bass clef)?

24/G-flat - D-flat
14/G-flat - C
124/G-flat - B
234/G-flat - B-flat?
0 - also B-flat?
134/G-flat - A?
1234/G-flat - A-flat?

I wonder if different slides can used to change the tuning of the 5th valve. Maybe a G attachment would work better? I suppose it could be an E attachment, etc. Does anyone know if 4th valve could be eliminated with a certain tuning of the bass trombone valve and still get down to a low B?

Robert Pendergast, DM

[wizan]

So that must be pitched in C, right?

Nope. In France, saxhorn bass score are written on B in bass key.

[davewerden]

Nope. In France, saxhorn bass score are written on B in bass key.

Ah, I had my brain on backwards! Thanks.

[euphisto]

The Adams with the G-flat attachment is interesting. I assume that the G-flat attachment and the fourth valve would produce a low D. Then the following fingerings for the rest of the low notes, perhaps (in bass clef)?

24/G-flat - D-flat
14/G-flat - C
124/G-flat - B
234/G-flat - B-flat?
0 - also B-flat?
134/G-flat - A?
1234/G-flat - A-flat?

I wonder if different slides can used to change the tuning of the 5th valve. Maybe a G attachment would work better? I suppose it could be an E attachment, etc. Does anyone know if 4th valve could be eliminated with a certain tuning of the bass trombone valve and still get down to a low B?

Robert Pendergast, DM

Oops, I was thinking with compensating valves in mind. The combination of 14/G-flat attachment will probably be sharp. So I guess low C would be 124/G-flat attachment. Then I suppose B/C-flat would be 234/G-flat attachment? I think it would be interesting to try this horn, but a bit confusing, at least for me. Where is the trigger for the G-flat attachment, between the third valve tubing?

Robert Pendergast, DM

[wizan]

Ah, I had my brain on backwards! Thanks.

it's my fault, I could have specified it but with my poot English, I went to the shortest.

Courtois made a 6 valves too in C, but i never saw it IRL. I don’t really understand the difference between the 2 and 5 valves. I’ll try to ask to some friends.

http://saxhorneuphoniumtuba.free.fr/...ticle&artid=27

Regards.

[ann reid]

it's my fault, I could have specified it but with my poot English, I went to the shortest.

Courtois made a 6 valves too in C, but i never saw it IRL. I don’t really understand the difference between the 2 and 5 valves. I’ll try to ask to some friends.

http://saxhorneuphoniumtuba.free.fr/...ticle&artid=27

Regards.

I hope you will not be too concerned about your English, wizan. You have expressed yourself and been very helpful to me, a very ignorant euphonium student.

I am a native speaker of English, and a life long woodwind specialist, who driven by my passion for wind band playing, have become a euphonium student because of severe arthritis in some of my fingers.

Since beginning my lessons I’ve looked for THE right euphonium for me to satisfy my musical needs AND my needs for an instrument that is comfortable for me to hold. I am considering an Adams Sonic, and the 5 valve version gives me another potential choice. I am not, and would never choose to be, a soloist. I am totally focused on high quality ensemble playing.

Thank you for the fingering chart and the advertisement for the sax horns. I find that both are helpful to me.

I have to ask my ongoing question- I am presently playing a very nice Willson 2704 (noncompensating). Could this be my step-up?

[Shawn]

Wish Adams would do four-valves-for-one-hand.
I've written them twice... crickets.

[ann reid]

Wish Adams would do four-valves-for-one-hand.
I've written them twice... crickets.

I can appreciate your frustration, but it seems that the vast majority of buyers aren’t interested in 4 on top or 4 in front, so since making them isn’t as lucrative, makers have to be selective with what they produce.

I’m happy that Adams has chosen to market an uncompensated “professional” grade large bore horn, and even more that it will now (hopefully) be available with 5 valves.

As mentioned previously, I play a very fine Willson with 4 valves on top, but although Willson sold them and also a compensating euphonium with 4 in front, they are no longer doing so.

The economy sometimes moves decisions in one direction and sometimes in another.

[franz]

Hi,

It remembers me the Antoine Courtois n°166 with 5 valves. Perhaps the fingers chart will be nears it http://saxhorneuphoniumtuba.free.fr/..._5_pistons.jpg

So it's a bit like the French Wessex C tuba with 6 pistons, with the difference that with the latter you have greater possibilities of fingering having an extra piston set on a half tone (or one tone) longer.

[Snake Charmer]

So it's a bit like the French Wessex C tuba with 6 pistons, with the difference that with the latter you have greater possibilities of fingering having an extra piston set on a half tone (or one tone) longer.

The 166 has a different philosophy in fingering as the Adams. It has the two-whole-steps 3rd valve and perfect fifth 5th valve.
The Adams has the exact analogy to a bass trombone, which was also used for tubas by Miraphone and B&S 30 years ago. Fingering is very easy to get used to, just use 45 for D, 145 for Db, 345 for C and 1345 for B. Not too much stuff to recognize...
For the proper Bass-Bone-feeling the 4th valve should be operated by the left thumb!