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Thread: Playing flat, maybe a mouthpiece problem? Any suggestions

  1. #1

    Playing flat, maybe a mouthpiece problem? Any suggestions

    So, after a 20 year absence from playing euphonium I started up again. I started off on a Mack Brass, then got a used Sterling Virtuoso and a used Besson Sovereign. I am playing on a Denis Wick 4AL. I practice about an hour a day, and can hear the intonation problems in the intervals, but have not played in an ensemble.

    To make a long story short, I find that when I go to tune in an ensemble I'm playing flat. Doesn't matter which horn. The Sterling, the Besson, or any of my 3 double bell euphoniums. I've got the slide pretty much all the way in. Does it effect every pitch, no, the F, 4th line BC seems OK, but the Bb on top of BC staff is consistently like 10 cents flat unless I'm all the way in.

    20 years ago, for a few years I played bass bone, on a 1.5 G with no problems, before that I was a euph major in college about 32 years ago. At that time I played on a Besson with a 6.5AL with no issues.

    I can get to pitch but I feel like I'm doing some serious bending.

    Is it the 4AL...I don't really want to go out and buy a bunch of mouthpieces, and I like the 4AL. As far as I can tell my embouchure is the same as always, but after 30 plus years who can tell?

    Any suggestions?

    Jeff Stratton
    CA

  2. #2
    I play a 4AL and haven't noted a similar problem. ALL horns play flat when cold, but that should improve once you're warmed up. On my Besson and Sterling I have a lot of main tuning slide pulled out on both.
    Sterling Virtuoso Euphonium, Denis Wick 4AL

  3. #3
    It sounds like you have a really good ear. Here are a few questions:
    1. Is there a store near you that would let you physically try several mouthpieces and check intonation? (Or perhaps a friend or local player?)
    2. Can you play in tune with drones or are you having to lip everything a lot?
    If you know you're compatible with a 5g, 6.5, etc., I'd probably find one and give it a go just to see.
    Jupiter 462 & 470, XO 1270
    Stork 4.5 mouthpiece

  4. #4
    It’s possible you’re just playing on the low side of the slot.

    Just as a sanity check, I would play your pitch, bend up, bend below, and then return to where you feel the center of the slot.

    THEN and only then, look at a tuner to see where you are. I return to this method when I feel like I’m not 100% certain where the horn wants the pitch to be.

    I don’t feel a 4AL is deep enough to make you play consistently flat in this way.
    Mike Taylor

    Illinois Brass Band
    Fox Valley Brass Band

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Farmington Hills, MI
    Posts
    472
    Do you feel you have the breath support you did 20 years ago? My tendency is to play a bit flat but when I breath deeply and push from my diaphragm that goes away.

  6. #6
    I think Michael and Mike are barking up the right tree here - doubt it will be the mouthpiece or the horns if you're flat on each one.
    Adams E2 | K&G 4D+

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2022
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Stratton View Post
    So, after a 20 year absence from playing euphonium I started up again. I started off on a Mack Brass, then got a used Sterling Virtuoso and a used Besson Sovereign. I am playing on a Denis Wick 4AL. I practice about an hour a day, and can hear the intonation problems in the intervals, but have not played in an ensemble.

    To make a long story short, I find that when I go to tune in an ensemble I'm playing flat. Doesn't matter which horn. The Sterling, the Besson, or any of my 3 double bell euphoniums. I've got the slide pretty much all the way in. Does it effect every pitch, no, the F, 4th line BC seems OK, but the Bb on top of BC staff is consistently like 10 cents flat unless I'm all the way in.

    20 years ago, for a few years I played bass bone, on a 1.5 G with no problems, before that I was a euph major in college about 32 years ago. At that time I played on a Besson with a 6.5AL with no issues.

    I can get to pitch but I feel like I'm doing some serious bending.

    Is it the 4AL...I don't really want to go out and buy a bunch of mouthpieces, and I like the 4AL. As far as I can tell my embouchure is the same as always, but after 30 plus years who can tell?

    Any suggestions?

    Jeff Stratton
    CA
    If you are thinking it is a mouthpiece thing/want to try a mouthpiece, I have a DW SM6 that I have only used once or twice, I probably have the box too if you want that. I was not really looking to sell it before I saw this, so I would be fine getting around 50-60$, just let me know.

  8. #8
    I think it's age-related. I'm 66 and while I've been playing for 54 years now, about 10 years ago I noticed the same effect - playing about 45 cents flat. I had the issue with the Sterling Virtuoso and with both the Adams E1 and E2. Oddly enough, I didn't have that problem with my 967, but that was 20 years ago. Tried all kinds of things without spending a bazillion bucks on mouthpieces, so my fix was -- and it wasn't a cheap fix -- was to get Adams to build me an E2 about 50 cents sharper than they normally do. They did so at the factory to the point that you can't get the first valve out of its casing unless you take the valve button off. Just a little bit shorter all the way around.

    It worked great. I've had my E2 for more than 5 years and I no longer have that problem.
    U.S. Army, Retired (built mid-1950s)
    Adams E2 Euph (built 2017)
    Boosey & Co. Imperial Euph (built 1941)
    Edwards B454 Bass Trombone (built 2012)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb tuba (built 1958)
    Kanstul 33-T lBBb tuba (built 2010)

  9. The 4AL may very well be too big for an American style baritone. I was never able to use that mouthpiece or 4AM or 4AY on my Conn 24i or Holton DB. Work on the 4AL with the Sterling or Besson but not the 3 DBs.

    Second, age is a factor. I found myself getting worn out using my 4AL on my Sterling around the time I turned 70. This is after nearly 40 yrs of regular use. I started using an Alliance DC4 after Dave Werden experimented with it. Range, endurance, and pitch improved. If you are going to xhange mouthpieces, make small changes.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

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