too many horns, too many mouthpieces

[rgorscak]

I have many horns, but right now, I play a Euphonium (Adam E3 or Besson Prestige), a small-bore tenor trombone, and a bass trombone in 3 different bands. I play the small-bore trombone and Euphonium the same night (concert band and jazz band). For each, I use a different size mouthpiece. I find the Schilke 51D most comfortable for the Euphonium. I already own about 30 mouthpieces and need to stop experiencing. Does anyone have experience finding one mouthpiece (or size) that lends itself to all three horns similar to the 51D. Switching from small-bore trombone to Euphonium sometimes makes it difficult to find the high notes concisely. As I continue to play, maybe I will get better. I bought a Wessex Jazz Tuba and that is an altogether different story!

[dsurkin]

[snip] Does anyone have experience finding one mouthpiece (or size) that lends itself to all three horns similar to the 51D. [snip]!

Have you considered Doug Elliott mouthpieces? You can have one rim in 101 size (similar to the 51D) and switch off to different cups and shanks, depending upon which horn you're using.

I currently use the BB1 on my large-shank euphonium and an 1970s vintage Bach 6.5AL on my medium bore trombone. The rims do differ by about 0.01 inch, but I think the different in cup/backbore makes each mouthpiece better suited to the horn (the euphonium is large shank and the trombone is small shank, so that makes a difference, too).

[iMav]

You said “something like the 51D”. I assume, then, the 51D does not work for you on all three?

[CousinJack]

I believe you can get a 51D in small shank, which means you can use it with your small bore trombone. It's best to try and stick with just one if you can, it's very frustrating to switch constantly!

[iMav]

I own a small shank 51D (bought it for my son’s tenor horn).

[Bartoneuffer]

The 51D is OK. I use the original Lehman Special but it is much deeper than the 51D. Find the mouthpiece and instrument you like and stick with it. There is no PERFECT horn or mouthpiece. How you play and what you sound like depends on you, not the mouthpiece or horn. Practice, practice, practice. Arthur told me the minimum for a successful euphonium player is two hours a day,,, a bare minimum.
I can spot a trombone player who picks up the euphonium... it's a matter of breath control and embouchure.

"Every note a pearl."

[tbonesullivan]

Hmmm, this is a pretty standard question and a thing that doublers have to deal with. The problem is that the cup, throat, and backbore that works well for a Euphonium is really not appropriate for small bore trombone. This is really where systems like Doug Elliott's shine: you can have the same rim size and get a variety of setups using that same rim size. Hammond mouthpieces also work that way, with every rim size having an S, M, ML, L, XL and changes in the throat and backbore, though they don't have the same level of exact dialing in that you would get from the Doug Elliott's system.

For bass trombone, things are a bit different, as a 51 size rim won't easily get a true 'bass trombone sound".

[aroberts781]

The problem is that the cup, throat, and backbore that works well for a Euphonium is really not appropriate for small bore trombone. This is really where systems like Doug Elliott's shine: you can have the same rim size and get a variety of setups using that same rim size. Hammond mouthpieces also work that way, with every rim size having an S, M, ML, L, XL and changes in the throat and backbore, though they don't have the same level of exact dialing in that you would get from the Doug Elliott's system.

There is something about the Doug Elliott mouthpieces that I have been wondering about as I read this thread. I play on a DE EUPH series mouthpiece but have never used any of his other trombone series pieces. As I understand it, the different trombone series pieces (ST, MT, LT, XT) are generally intended for use with certain trombones, i.e ST series for small bore horns, XT for large bore horns. And then different shanks correspond with different cup depths. So if you loved the DE 101 rim, and wanted to keep that rim and use it for small bore tenor and euphonium, I'm having trouble seeing how it could be done without just buying separate DE rim/cup/shank setups. The EUPH series rims don't thread onto the tenor trombone cups (right?), and presumably you would want a different cup depth for the euph vs the small tenor, so the shank would need to be different between the two different cups. So you could use the LT or XT setup for the euphonium, which I think means the rim would thread onto any of the ST through XT cups, although the rim to cup interface may not line up seamlessly. And the LT or XT piece may not work very well with a small bore tenor. Like I said, I haven't tried the trombone series pieces so for all I know an LT or XT setup with the right cup and shank may sound just fine on a small bore.

This feels like a ramble, but I am just having trouble figuring out how the DE pieces would work to have a single, consistent DE rim that would fit and work well with different cup/shank arrangements to cover small bore, euph, and bass bone setups. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?

[dsurkin]

[snip]This feels like a ramble, but I am just having trouble figuring out how the DE pieces would work to have a single, consistent DE rim that would fit and work well with different cup/shank arrangements to cover small bore, euph, and bass bone setups. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?

One possibility is to compromise. For example, use the XT101 with F cup and 4 shank for a small/medium bore tenor, and the I cup and 8 shank for a large-shank euphonium. This probably doesn't work for bass trombone - I personally don't know any bass trombonist who uses a rim as small as 101.

On the other end of the scale, my band mate Walter Barrett uses a Doug Elliott 114 rim on euphonium, and I think he uses that same rim for tenor and bass trombones. And he can hit C5 (and higher) any time he wants!

[mbrooke]

There is something about the Doug Elliott mouthpieces that I have been wondering about as I read this thread. I play on a DE EUPH series mouthpiece but have never used any of his other trombone series pieces. As I understand it, the different trombone series pieces (ST, MT, LT, XT) are generally intended for use with certain trombones, i.e ST series for small bore horns, XT for large bore horns. And then different shanks correspond with different cup depths. So if you loved the DE 101 rim, and wanted to keep that rim and use it for small bore tenor and euphonium, I'm having trouble seeing how it could be done without just buying separate DE rim/cup/shank setups. The EUPH series rims don't thread onto the tenor trombone cups (right?), and presumably you would want a different cup depth for the euph vs the small tenor, so the shank would need to be different between the two different cups. So you could use the LT or XT setup for the euphonium, which I think means the rim would thread onto any of the ST through XT cups, although the rim to cup interface may not line up seamlessly. And the LT or XT piece may not work very well with a small bore tenor. Like I said, I haven't tried the trombone series pieces so for all I know an LT or XT setup with the right cup and shank may sound just fine on a small bore.

This feels like a ramble, but I am just having trouble figuring out how the DE pieces would work to have a single, consistent DE rim that would fit and work well with different cup/shank arrangements to cover small bore, euph, and bass bone setups. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?

That's not quite correct. The different cup designations correspond to the width of the cup. So, for example, an LT I cup is the same depth as a Euph I cup, but it is narrower. The Euph cups are in between his small base trombone cups and the XT cups. The rims are sized to match the cup. So if you play a Euph cup, you will need a Euph rim. An XT cup will need an XT rim. The shanks are sized so that the opening of the backbore matches the curvature of the throat in the cup. So, an I cup throat matches the I shank backbore.

Mike

[hyperbolica]

I used to collect mouthpieces and never felt satisfied with what I was using.

Until I got Doug Elliott stuff. Now I have no desire to buy another mouthpiece. I have small, medium and large tenors, a small and large bass, as well as a small tuba, euphonium, baritone and flugabone.

Dougs mouthpieces are modular, so you can buy rims, cups and backbores and put them together to suit your needs. I use 104 size for all trombone and euph, and 112 for bass bone, and I think 126 for tuba.

The secret for me was to move from 5G size to bigger rims that fit my face better (3g-2g rim size), but smaller cups. I had the problem where I could not easily change rim size. When I adjusted my smallest rims up in size, now I don't have any problem switching back and forth.

So for small/medium tenors, I use 104 rim (C-F) cup and (2-4) shank.
For large tenor I use 104 rim, G cup and 8 shank
for bass bone I use 112 rim, K cup and 9 shank
for euph I use 104 rim J cup and 9 shank
for tuba I use 126 rim, P cup and 16 shank.

The only times I use something else is sometimes I use a Ferguson V for small bass/low tenor, and I have a Ferguson L as a backup bass/euph mouthpiece.

The great part is that I use the same rim profile across all my horns. Plus, I like to play on lexan rims, so I use that for everything as well. And if I ever need to make a small adjustment, Doug's stuff is in small increments. Plus, Doug is very accessible and the most knowledgeable mouthpiece/embouchure guy you'll ever meet. His recommendations are always either right on or very close to perfect.

[aroberts781]

Thanks to dsurkin, mbrooke, and hyperbolica for sharing your experiences!

A couple other questions I have after reading your responses.

Dean, it sounds like you use an XT series cup for both your small and medium bore tenors and your large bore compensating euphonium. Looking at Doug's website I get the impression that the ST or MT series is "best" for smaller bore trombones, but I assume you are happy with an XT series on you're small bore?

Mike, I was aware that Euph cups had to use Euph rims. You say that XT cups need an XT rim. Could one use an XT rim on an ST or MT cup? If I recall from reading various things on the Internet the threads would match so they could be threaded together, but because the cup widths are different between the ST, MT, and XT series that the interface between the cup and rim would have a step rather than transitioning smoothly. In other words, if you liked the 102 rim and wanted to use an XT cup on your .547 and an ST on your .500, could a person use the same 102 rim or would you need to buy an ST102 and an XT102?

Hyperbolica, you seem to use the 104 rim for your tenor trombones and euphonium, and then various cups depending on the specific instrument. I think this is the perfect thing that I am trying to understand. So are you able to use one single 104 rim for your small/medium/large bore tenors? Are you using the same series for you trombones or do you have an LT or XT for the large bore and an ST and/or MT for your small/medium bore trombones. You mention that you use the same rim profile, but does that mean the same rim, or do you have several different 104 rims to match different series.

This all kind of brings up another question. I would love to be able to use my DE rim (Euph 102) to build a mouthpiece with a Remington shank to use on my 1969 Conn 88H. The shallowest Euph series cup is a G. Does anyone have any experience playing a DE Euph mouthpiece in large bore tenor trombone? My assumption is that the Euph series is probably a bit too "open" to really work well on tenor trombone. Any thoughts or experiences with that? Of course I could always just email Doug, which I probably will to get his opinion, but it might make for interesting discussion here as well.

[rgorscak]

I will ask one last question. I stated the Schilke 51D felt good to me and I found i have large and small shank. Lately, though, i am having trouble nailing high notes when jumping from low notes (or even going directly to a high note at random). I keep working on Arban intervals, but sometime i seem to get worse rather than better. I wonder if a different mouthpiece would be better suited for high notes. I have so many that i have lost track of what worked for me when. I did not have as much trouble before as i do now, but i cannot even remember what mouthpieces i used when.

Any advice as what to try. I have been working for an hour on intervals and get tired after a while.

I just noticed that practicing for a concert and at rehearsals, I am starting to miss notes where i did not before!!!

[rgorscak]

PS, i am beginning to wonder if i am starting to get bad habits with my embouchure. Unfortunately, i have no one around Orlando who i can get to look at what i am doing.

[davewerden]

PS, i am beginning to wonder if i am starting to get bad habits with my embouchure. Unfortunately, i have no one around Orlando who i can get to look at what i am doing.

I believe Doug Elliott offers a video service to help with embouchure issues. That would be a good choice.