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Thread: too many horns, too many mouthpieces

  1. #1
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    Feb 2021
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    too many horns, too many mouthpieces

    I have many horns, but right now, I play a Euphonium (Adam E3 or Besson Prestige), a small-bore tenor trombone, and a bass trombone in 3 different bands. I play the small-bore trombone and Euphonium the same night (concert band and jazz band). For each, I use a different size mouthpiece. I find the Schilke 51D most comfortable for the Euphonium. I already own about 30 mouthpieces and need to stop experiencing. Does anyone have experience finding one mouthpiece (or size) that lends itself to all three horns similar to the 51D. Switching from small-bore trombone to Euphonium sometimes makes it difficult to find the high notes concisely. As I continue to play, maybe I will get better. I bought a Wessex Jazz Tuba and that is an altogether different story!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgorscak View Post
    [snip] Does anyone have experience finding one mouthpiece (or size) that lends itself to all three horns similar to the 51D. [snip]!
    Have you considered Doug Elliott mouthpieces? You can have one rim in 101 size (similar to the 51D) and switch off to different cups and shanks, depending upon which horn you're using.

    I currently use the BB1 on my large-shank euphonium and an 1970s vintage Bach 6.5AL on my medium bore trombone. The rims do differ by about 0.01 inch, but I think the different in cup/backbore makes each mouthpiece better suited to the horn (the euphonium is large shank and the trombone is small shank, so that makes a difference, too).
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 (DE 101XTG9 mouthpiece in the drawer)
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Valley City, North Dakota, USA
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    You said “something like the 51D”. I assume, then, the 51D does not work for you on all three?
    Euphoniums
    Sterling Virtuoso IV
    John Packer 374LT
    John Packer 274L
    S.E.Shires Q41s

    Larry Herzog Jr.
    Twitter: iMav
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    All things EUPHONIUM! Guilded server

  4. #4
    I believe you can get a 51D in small shank, which means you can use it with your small bore trombone. It's best to try and stick with just one if you can, it's very frustrating to switch constantly!
    Harry Weir - Besson Sovereign 967-T | K&G 4D+

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Valley City, North Dakota, USA
    Posts
    629
    I own a small shank 51D (bought it for my son’s tenor horn).
    Euphoniums
    Sterling Virtuoso IV
    John Packer 374LT
    John Packer 274L
    S.E.Shires Q41s

    Larry Herzog Jr.
    Twitter: iMav
    Facebook: iMav
    Email: me@imav.org
    Founder of geekhack.org

    Linktree: iMav


    All things EUPHONIUM! Guilded server

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2022
    Location
    west Tennessee USA
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    4
    The 51D is OK. I use the original Lehman Special but it is much deeper than the 51D. Find the mouthpiece and instrument you like and stick with it. There is no PERFECT horn or mouthpiece. How you play and what you sound like depends on you, not the mouthpiece or horn. Practice, practice, practice. Arthur told me the minimum for a successful euphonium player is two hours a day,,, a bare minimum.
    I can spot a trombone player who picks up the euphonium... it's a matter of breath control and embouchure.

    "Every note a pearl."
    Last edited by Bartoneuffer; 11-14-2022 at 12:32 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
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    Hmmm, this is a pretty standard question and a thing that doublers have to deal with. The problem is that the cup, throat, and backbore that works well for a Euphonium is really not appropriate for small bore trombone. This is really where systems like Doug Elliott's shine: you can have the same rim size and get a variety of setups using that same rim size. Hammond mouthpieces also work that way, with every rim size having an S, M, ML, L, XL and changes in the throat and backbore, though they don't have the same level of exact dialing in that you would get from the Doug Elliott's system.

    For bass trombone, things are a bit different, as a 51 size rim won't easily get a true 'bass trombone sound".
    Sterling / Perantucci 1065HGS Euphonium, 1952 B&H Imperial Eb Tuba, and a bunch of trombones.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by tbonesullivan View Post
    The problem is that the cup, throat, and backbore that works well for a Euphonium is really not appropriate for small bore trombone. This is really where systems like Doug Elliott's shine: you can have the same rim size and get a variety of setups using that same rim size. Hammond mouthpieces also work that way, with every rim size having an S, M, ML, L, XL and changes in the throat and backbore, though they don't have the same level of exact dialing in that you would get from the Doug Elliott's system.
    There is something about the Doug Elliott mouthpieces that I have been wondering about as I read this thread. I play on a DE EUPH series mouthpiece but have never used any of his other trombone series pieces. As I understand it, the different trombone series pieces (ST, MT, LT, XT) are generally intended for use with certain trombones, i.e ST series for small bore horns, XT for large bore horns. And then different shanks correspond with different cup depths. So if you loved the DE 101 rim, and wanted to keep that rim and use it for small bore tenor and euphonium, I'm having trouble seeing how it could be done without just buying separate DE rim/cup/shank setups. The EUPH series rims don't thread onto the tenor trombone cups (right?), and presumably you would want a different cup depth for the euph vs the small tenor, so the shank would need to be different between the two different cups. So you could use the LT or XT setup for the euphonium, which I think means the rim would thread onto any of the ST through XT cups, although the rim to cup interface may not line up seamlessly. And the LT or XT piece may not work very well with a small bore tenor. Like I said, I haven't tried the trombone series pieces so for all I know an LT or XT setup with the right cup and shank may sound just fine on a small bore.

    This feels like a ramble, but I am just having trouble figuring out how the DE pieces would work to have a single, consistent DE rim that would fit and work well with different cup/shank arrangements to cover small bore, euph, and bass bone setups. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    NYC metro area
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    Quote Originally Posted by aroberts781 View Post
    [snip]This feels like a ramble, but I am just having trouble figuring out how the DE pieces would work to have a single, consistent DE rim that would fit and work well with different cup/shank arrangements to cover small bore, euph, and bass bone setups. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?
    One possibility is to compromise. For example, use the XT101 with F cup and 4 shank for a small/medium bore tenor, and the I cup and 8 shank for a large-shank euphonium. This probably doesn't work for bass trombone - I personally don't know any bass trombonist who uses a rim as small as 101.

    On the other end of the scale, my band mate Walter Barrett uses a Doug Elliott 114 rim on euphonium, and I think he uses that same rim for tenor and bass trombones. And he can hit C5 (and higher) any time he wants!
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 (DE 101XTG9 mouthpiece in the drawer)
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by aroberts781 View Post
    There is something about the Doug Elliott mouthpieces that I have been wondering about as I read this thread. I play on a DE EUPH series mouthpiece but have never used any of his other trombone series pieces. As I understand it, the different trombone series pieces (ST, MT, LT, XT) are generally intended for use with certain trombones, i.e ST series for small bore horns, XT for large bore horns. And then different shanks correspond with different cup depths. So if you loved the DE 101 rim, and wanted to keep that rim and use it for small bore tenor and euphonium, I'm having trouble seeing how it could be done without just buying separate DE rim/cup/shank setups. The EUPH series rims don't thread onto the tenor trombone cups (right?), and presumably you would want a different cup depth for the euph vs the small tenor, so the shank would need to be different between the two different cups. So you could use the LT or XT setup for the euphonium, which I think means the rim would thread onto any of the ST through XT cups, although the rim to cup interface may not line up seamlessly. And the LT or XT piece may not work very well with a small bore tenor. Like I said, I haven't tried the trombone series pieces so for all I know an LT or XT setup with the right cup and shank may sound just fine on a small bore.

    This feels like a ramble, but I am just having trouble figuring out how the DE pieces would work to have a single, consistent DE rim that would fit and work well with different cup/shank arrangements to cover small bore, euph, and bass bone setups. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?
    That's not quite correct. The different cup designations correspond to the width of the cup. So, for example, an LT I cup is the same depth as a Euph I cup, but it is narrower. The Euph cups are in between his small base trombone cups and the XT cups. The rims are sized to match the cup. So if you play a Euph cup, you will need a Euph rim. An XT cup will need an XT rim. The shanks are sized so that the opening of the backbore matches the curvature of the throat in the cup. So, an I cup throat matches the I shank backbore.

    Mike

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