too many horns, too many mouthpieces

[hyperbolica]

Thanks to dsurkin, mbrooke, and hyperbolica for sharing your experiences!

Hyperbolica, you seem to use the 104 rim for your tenor trombones and euphonium, and then various cups depending on the specific instrument. I think this is the perfect thing that I am trying to understand. So are you able to use one single 104 rim for your small/medium/large bore tenors? Are you using the same series for you trombones or do you have an LT or XT for the large bore and an ST and/or MT for your small/medium bore trombones. You mention that you use the same rim profile, but does that mean the same rim, or do you have several different 104 rims to match different series.

This all kind of brings up another question. I would love to be able to use my DE rim (Euph 102) to build a mouthpiece with a Remington shank to use on my 1969 Conn 88H. The shallowest Euph series cup is a G. Does anyone have any experience playing a DE Euph mouthpiece in large bore tenor trombone? My assumption is that the Euph series is probably a bit too "open" to really work well on tenor trombone. Any thoughts or experiences with that? Of course I could always just email Doug, which I probably will to get his opinion, but it might make for interesting discussion here as well.

I use the rim to fit my face, the cup to fit the range or sound I want and the shank to fit the horn. That's how I look at it. I tried to use the same rim for tenor and bass, and it just didn't work. Had to get a bigger bass rim. Truth be known, I'd probably use a slightly bigger rim for euphonium as well (probably 108 instead of 104)

I use the XT 104n rim on all my tenors and baritone/flugabone. I don't use any other series for my tenor bones. I have 5-6 of these rims. You could make this work with only a single rim, but you'd be screwing and unscrewing stuff constantly. If you don't switch horns that often, it wouldn't be a big deal. I play several horns a day, and wanted to do side by side comparisons, so I just got entire mouthpieces.

I originally tested silver plate rims against gold plate and lexan, and decided on lexan. But Parker does make some stainless steel rims that (sort of) fit DE cups. These give a brighter, more projecting, strident type of sound. Usually I keep this rim on my smaller mouthpieces.

The only other situations where I change components is when I switch between my Olds Recording (small receiver) and my Conn 79h (normal receiver), so I swap shanks when I move a mouthpiece between those horns. I have 3, 3O and 4, 4S. The O taper is specifically for Olds, and the S is just a smaller shank to fit a specific horn. Doug also makes Remington shanks. Sometimes I might use my 88h with a 525 slide that uses a small shank mouthpiece. When I put the 547 slide back on, I have to put a different shank on the mouthpiece. My F and G cups are the only ones that get used interchangeably between small and large shank.

The series blanks are different sizes. For example, an XT and a LT of the same cup size have a different outer shape, with the XT being bigger. I just use XT rims and cups for everything from my 48h (500 bore) to my 88h (547 bore). I even used XT on alto when I had one.

I use the EUPH 104 J 9 for my euphonium mouthpiece. . I've tried it on my Holton tr159, which is half way between a tenor and a bass. It works. Also tried it on my 88h, and it gets a big fat sound. The upper range is ok. A G cup is about 5G size, maybe a little larger. So I think it would work. It may require more effort, especially in the high range.

Over time I think you'll be less concerned with trying to save money by making one piece work for many different situations, and realize that you can really dial in a mouthpiece for each horn, style of music, range, etc, many different factors. I can get a fat dark sound on a 48h with a 104E4, or a bright punchy lead sound with 104C2.

You can often get used parts too. There is quite an active trade of DE stuff on the trombone forum. Doug hangs out there, and often answers questions. You can get lessons from him in person or online, and he diagnoses and fixes embouchure and mouthpiece problems.

[rgorscak]

Dave

I tried to find the video service site but could not. Can you give me a link?

Rich G

[iMav]

I tried to find the video service site but could not. Can you give me a link?

Drop him an email: demouthpieces [at] aol [dot] com

[mbrooke]

The 51D is OK. I use the original Lehman Special but it is much deeper than the 51D. Find the mouthpiece and instrument you like and stick with it. There is no PERFECT horn or mouthpiece. How you play and what you sound like depends on you, not the mouthpiece or horn. Practice, practice, practice. Arthur told me the minimum for a successful euphonium player is two hours a day,,, a bare minimum.
I can spot a trombone player who picks up the euphonium... it's a matter of breath control and embouchure.

"Every note a pearl."

I have an original Lehman as well. For me, it is the most comfortable rim I have ever used.

Mike

[aroberts781]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, hyperbolica, that was exactly the info I was looking for!

[tbonesullivan]

This feels like a ramble, but I am just having trouble figuring out how the DE pieces would work to have a single, consistent DE rim that would fit and work well with different cup/shank arrangements to cover small bore, euph, and bass bone setups. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences with this?

As I understand it, each "series" is listed as being somewhat similar to a specific mouthpiece, like how the ST is "kind of" like a bach 12C/11C, the MT like a 7C, and the LT like a 5G. But that's just the starting point. There is an overlap in rim sizes, and also with the different cups and shanks you can really dial in what you are looking for.

I know others have commented on this already, but each rim is specific to a "series", so the LT rim will only fit LT Cups, etc. So you can't always use the exact same rim, unless you stay within the series. The are specific to the cup letter. I also believe there will be some difference between an LT 104 E / 4* setup and an XT 104 E / 4 * in terms of feel, as the XT cups may be a bit wider overall, so even if the depth is the same, there is more "space". The "series" is basically decided by the size of the "interface" where the threading is between the rim and the cup. So, the EUPH series has a slightly larger "interface" than the XT, which is why it can also be used for some bass trombone uses.

Even within these "limitations" however, you can still stay within the LT series and make a mouthpiece suitable for alto. You can also get a nice "middle of the road" mouthpiece, and have several shanks for it based on which trombone you are playing with it.

[aroberts781]

Thanks for adding your thoughts tbonesullivan. I think your post basically lines up with where I settled in all of this discussion, which is that some people prefer to tailor specific series set ups to specific horns, and others have found some success varying cups and shanks within a series to work on a variety of different sized horns.

Thanks again for everyone's discussion.

[dsurkin]

[snip]Dean, it sounds like you use an XT series cup for both your small and medium bore tenors and your large bore compensating euphonium. Looking at Doug's website I get the impression that the ST or MT series is "best" for smaller bore trombones, but I assume you are happy with an XT series on you're small bore? [snip]

Sorry to say, my Doug Elliott has been sitting in the drawer for a while now. I'm using the Bowman BB1 on the euphonium and my vintage Bach 6.5 AL on my Bach 36B.

[miketeachesclass]

I will say that I'm currently playing on a DE 103 rim with an H* cup and H9 backbore.

I have a bunch of DE components from 103 through 106 rims, and H through J cups/backbores. The H seems to be a sweet spot for me in terms of maintaining the sound I want (Still not quite a brilliant as a wick, but much more comfortable for me).

Bente Illevold uses a DE 103 H as well.

Mike

[tbonesullivan]

Sorry to say, my Doug Elliott has been sitting in the drawer for a while now. I'm using the Bowman BB1 on the euphonium and my vintage Bach 6.5 AL on my Bach 36B.

I currently use a Wick 4AL with my Sterling, though I also have a Hammond 11XL and Schilke 52D that I have been messing with.

For my LT36B however the Hammond 11ML small shank I had was just too too big sounding. I went with a DE LT 102 / E / 4* setup, and it really gets me the 36B sound that I want. It's kind of like a 6 1/2AL with just a bit more cup size, and maybe a slightly smaller throat. The Hammond 11ML is supposed to be like a 6 1/2AL as well but it's really just too open IMHO. It's much closer to a 5GS.