too many horns, too many mouthpieces

[hyperbolica]

I used to collect mouthpieces and never felt satisfied with what I was using.

Until I got Doug Elliott stuff. Now I have no desire to buy another mouthpiece. I have small, medium and large tenors, a small and large bass, as well as a small tuba, euphonium, baritone and flugabone.

Dougs mouthpieces are modular, so you can buy rims, cups and backbores and put them together to suit your needs. I use 104 size for all trombone and euph, and 112 for bass bone, and I think 126 for tuba.

The secret for me was to move from 5G size to bigger rims that fit my face better (3g-2g rim size), but smaller cups. I had the problem where I could not easily change rim size. When I adjusted my smallest rims up in size, now I don't have any problem switching back and forth.

So for small/medium tenors, I use 104 rim (C-F) cup and (2-4) shank.
For large tenor I use 104 rim, G cup and 8 shank
for bass bone I use 112 rim, K cup and 9 shank
for euph I use 104 rim J cup and 9 shank
for tuba I use 126 rim, P cup and 16 shank.

The only times I use something else is sometimes I use a Ferguson V for small bass/low tenor, and I have a Ferguson L as a backup bass/euph mouthpiece.

The great part is that I use the same rim profile across all my horns. Plus, I like to play on lexan rims, so I use that for everything as well. And if I ever need to make a small adjustment, Doug's stuff is in small increments. Plus, Doug is very accessible and the most knowledgeable mouthpiece/embouchure guy you'll ever meet. His recommendations are always either right on or very close to perfect.

[aroberts781]

Thanks to dsurkin, mbrooke, and hyperbolica for sharing your experiences!

A couple other questions I have after reading your responses.

Dean, it sounds like you use an XT series cup for both your small and medium bore tenors and your large bore compensating euphonium. Looking at Doug's website I get the impression that the ST or MT series is "best" for smaller bore trombones, but I assume you are happy with an XT series on you're small bore?

Mike, I was aware that Euph cups had to use Euph rims. You say that XT cups need an XT rim. Could one use an XT rim on an ST or MT cup? If I recall from reading various things on the Internet the threads would match so they could be threaded together, but because the cup widths are different between the ST, MT, and XT series that the interface between the cup and rim would have a step rather than transitioning smoothly. In other words, if you liked the 102 rim and wanted to use an XT cup on your .547 and an ST on your .500, could a person use the same 102 rim or would you need to buy an ST102 and an XT102?

Hyperbolica, you seem to use the 104 rim for your tenor trombones and euphonium, and then various cups depending on the specific instrument. I think this is the perfect thing that I am trying to understand. So are you able to use one single 104 rim for your small/medium/large bore tenors? Are you using the same series for you trombones or do you have an LT or XT for the large bore and an ST and/or MT for your small/medium bore trombones. You mention that you use the same rim profile, but does that mean the same rim, or do you have several different 104 rims to match different series.

This all kind of brings up another question. I would love to be able to use my DE rim (Euph 102) to build a mouthpiece with a Remington shank to use on my 1969 Conn 88H. The shallowest Euph series cup is a G. Does anyone have any experience playing a DE Euph mouthpiece in large bore tenor trombone? My assumption is that the Euph series is probably a bit too "open" to really work well on tenor trombone. Any thoughts or experiences with that? Of course I could always just email Doug, which I probably will to get his opinion, but it might make for interesting discussion here as well.

[rgorscak]

I will ask one last question. I stated the Schilke 51D felt good to me and I found i have large and small shank. Lately, though, i am having trouble nailing high notes when jumping from low notes (or even going directly to a high note at random). I keep working on Arban intervals, but sometime i seem to get worse rather than better. I wonder if a different mouthpiece would be better suited for high notes. I have so many that i have lost track of what worked for me when. I did not have as much trouble before as i do now, but i cannot even remember what mouthpieces i used when.

Any advice as what to try. I have been working for an hour on intervals and get tired after a while.

I just noticed that practicing for a concert and at rehearsals, I am starting to miss notes where i did not before!!!

[rgorscak]

PS, i am beginning to wonder if i am starting to get bad habits with my embouchure. Unfortunately, i have no one around Orlando who i can get to look at what i am doing.

[davewerden]

PS, i am beginning to wonder if i am starting to get bad habits with my embouchure. Unfortunately, i have no one around Orlando who i can get to look at what i am doing.

I believe Doug Elliott offers a video service to help with embouchure issues. That would be a good choice.

[hyperbolica]

Thanks to dsurkin, mbrooke, and hyperbolica for sharing your experiences!

Hyperbolica, you seem to use the 104 rim for your tenor trombones and euphonium, and then various cups depending on the specific instrument. I think this is the perfect thing that I am trying to understand. So are you able to use one single 104 rim for your small/medium/large bore tenors? Are you using the same series for you trombones or do you have an LT or XT for the large bore and an ST and/or MT for your small/medium bore trombones. You mention that you use the same rim profile, but does that mean the same rim, or do you have several different 104 rims to match different series.

This all kind of brings up another question. I would love to be able to use my DE rim (Euph 102) to build a mouthpiece with a Remington shank to use on my 1969 Conn 88H. The shallowest Euph series cup is a G. Does anyone have any experience playing a DE Euph mouthpiece in large bore tenor trombone? My assumption is that the Euph series is probably a bit too "open" to really work well on tenor trombone. Any thoughts or experiences with that? Of course I could always just email Doug, which I probably will to get his opinion, but it might make for interesting discussion here as well.

I use the rim to fit my face, the cup to fit the range or sound I want and the shank to fit the horn. That's how I look at it. I tried to use the same rim for tenor and bass, and it just didn't work. Had to get a bigger bass rim. Truth be known, I'd probably use a slightly bigger rim for euphonium as well (probably 108 instead of 104)

I use the XT 104n rim on all my tenors and baritone/flugabone. I don't use any other series for my tenor bones. I have 5-6 of these rims. You could make this work with only a single rim, but you'd be screwing and unscrewing stuff constantly. If you don't switch horns that often, it wouldn't be a big deal. I play several horns a day, and wanted to do side by side comparisons, so I just got entire mouthpieces.

I originally tested silver plate rims against gold plate and lexan, and decided on lexan. But Parker does make some stainless steel rims that (sort of) fit DE cups. These give a brighter, more projecting, strident type of sound. Usually I keep this rim on my smaller mouthpieces.

The only other situations where I change components is when I switch between my Olds Recording (small receiver) and my Conn 79h (normal receiver), so I swap shanks when I move a mouthpiece between those horns. I have 3, 3O and 4, 4S. The O taper is specifically for Olds, and the S is just a smaller shank to fit a specific horn. Doug also makes Remington shanks. Sometimes I might use my 88h with a 525 slide that uses a small shank mouthpiece. When I put the 547 slide back on, I have to put a different shank on the mouthpiece. My F and G cups are the only ones that get used interchangeably between small and large shank.

The series blanks are different sizes. For example, an XT and a LT of the same cup size have a different outer shape, with the XT being bigger. I just use XT rims and cups for everything from my 48h (500 bore) to my 88h (547 bore). I even used XT on alto when I had one.

I use the EUPH 104 J 9 for my euphonium mouthpiece. . I've tried it on my Holton tr159, which is half way between a tenor and a bass. It works. Also tried it on my 88h, and it gets a big fat sound. The upper range is ok. A G cup is about 5G size, maybe a little larger. So I think it would work. It may require more effort, especially in the high range.

Over time I think you'll be less concerned with trying to save money by making one piece work for many different situations, and realize that you can really dial in a mouthpiece for each horn, style of music, range, etc, many different factors. I can get a fat dark sound on a 48h with a 104E4, or a bright punchy lead sound with 104C2.

You can often get used parts too. There is quite an active trade of DE stuff on the trombone forum. Doug hangs out there, and often answers questions. You can get lessons from him in person or online, and he diagnoses and fixes embouchure and mouthpiece problems.

[rgorscak]

Dave

I tried to find the video service site but could not. Can you give me a link?

Rich G

[iMav]

I tried to find the video service site but could not. Can you give me a link?

Drop him an email: demouthpieces [at] aol [dot] com

[mbrooke]

The 51D is OK. I use the original Lehman Special but it is much deeper than the 51D. Find the mouthpiece and instrument you like and stick with it. There is no PERFECT horn or mouthpiece. How you play and what you sound like depends on you, not the mouthpiece or horn. Practice, practice, practice. Arthur told me the minimum for a successful euphonium player is two hours a day,,, a bare minimum.
I can spot a trombone player who picks up the euphonium... it's a matter of breath control and embouchure.

"Every note a pearl."

I have an original Lehman as well. For me, it is the most comfortable rim I have ever used.

Mike

[aroberts781]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, hyperbolica, that was exactly the info I was looking for!