Stencil horns? Which are Jinbao?

[iMav]

It is my understanding that Schiller (Jim Laabs), Wessex, and Mack Brass are all “stenciled” Jinbao horns. I ALSO, thought this was the case with John Packer…but was told by someone that the JP horns (and Eastman) are NOT Jinbao (but hasn’t said which Chinese company/factory makes them)).

Anyone aware of an article/blog post/wiki page that tracks this info???

[ivanhouston]

I would be interested in knowing this as well. I believe there has been discussion about Eastman's origin on this forum. As far as I know, Mack Brass, Schiller, and Wessex all based their horns on the Yamaha 642. Wessex has done major modifications to their horn.
John Packer, Thomann, and Dillon have based their horns on the Besson 967, although the bell sizes are all 11.8" which is smaller than the Besson.
The top of the line Schiller, Thomann, and Packer all have larger euphoniums with 12.25" bells and more of a Besson-style body.
This doesn't at all answer your question, but it was interesting to me!

[davewerden]

I believe Wessex is made in a different factory from JinBoa. Wessex is also offering designs that are their own, such as the Festivo; that would be a sign that they are unique. And the Sinfonico is made on a totally different production line than their Dolce, using technicians trained for building this hand-made horn.

IMO, a "stencil" horn is one that is identical to other horns from the factory except for the label. The Schiller is identical to JinBoa I believe, and I think Mack is as well.

Not sure where Austin Custom Brass gets the Doubler, but I can say that it seemed to play much differently from the JinBao.

Maybe we can isolate these differences during the conversation - I hope so. It's fairly confusing right now!

[iMav]

It is my understanding that "stencil" simply means that the horn is offered by a chinese manufacturer to whomever...and and as a service they will "stencil" the recipient company's logo (along with doing any modifications they require for their order). Most of them are clones of something else, obvs (like the afore mentioned 642 and 967).

[comebackplayer]

It's a good question. On trumpet, I really like Carolbrass (Taiwanese) stuff and discovered that they also make instruments for a number of other makers, and then a huge number of custom makers also use their valve block. Often the seller emphasizes a US or European connection, which I think can be deceptive. I like that with euphonium, pretty much everyone just says, 'yes, these are Chinese instruments, and we do X quality control or have worked with the manufacturer to produce Y result.'

I've seen the discussion of Wessex vs Schiller/Mack Brass/etc, and I'd love to see a repair tech or someone else who could compare them directly. Can you drop Mack valves into a Wessex? Is the mouthpiece ID different or identical? Are they all the same cases? Is the bell thickness and silver plating the same? I think until someone gets several recent instruments together with a set of calipers we probably won't know. I think the importers do offer a service, even if it is just doing quality control on arrival and offering some kind of warranty.

One way as a consumer to compare is to look at the versions offered on alibaba and see how they stack up against the model you bought. On the festivo, Jinbao does make a similar euphonium: https://www.baltimorebrasscompany.co...euphonium.aspx
It's clearly a somewhat different design (removable bell), but it would't surprise me if they use the same valves and similar machining.

[davewerden]

I've seen the discussion of Wessex vs Schiller/Mack Brass/etc, and I'd love to see a repair tech or someone else who could compare them directly. Can you drop Mack valves into a Wessex? Is the mouthpiece ID different or identical? Are they all the same cases? Is the bell thickness and silver plating the same? I think until someone gets several recent instruments together with a set of calipers we probably won't know. I think the importers do offer a service, even if it is just doing quality control on arrival and offering some kind of warranty.

A few things in there! Using the same valve block would not mean much (assuming it's good in the first place). Adams uses the same valve block for the E1, E2, and E3, but they play differently. Comparing the E1 & E3, they would measure the same in all places one would measure, I think, but the sound output is very different. So if JinBoa copied one and Schmitt Music branded it, and JinBoa copied the other and Baltimore Brass branded it, the fact that they were from the same factory would not tell how each would play. They could both use a copy of the Bonna case. And, yes, the importers may indeed have different standards about quality checks.

One way as a consumer to compare is to look at the versions offered on alibaba and see how they stack up against the model you bought. On the festivo, Jinbao does make a similar euphonium: https://www.baltimorebrasscompany.co...euphonium.aspx
It's clearly a somewhat different design (removable bell), but it would't surprise me if they use the same valves and similar machining.

One question I have there, actually a strong suspicion, is a chicken/egg issue. From all I have gathered, Wessex does the research on creating models like this. At least sometimes they start with extinct models that have the features they want. I suspect the similar horns you might see elsewhere were copied from Wessex's creation. I'm not sure is there is any way to prevent that (any more than Yamaha and Besson can prevent Chinese clones of their horns).

[comebackplayer]

Hi Mr. Werden, I'm really grateful for this site and for the thought and work you put into it.

I mentioned Carolbrass, because their main contribution is their valve block and also that they've made good all around trumpets. It's fascinating to me because their basic professional trumpet sells for $1500, but they seem to make similar trumpets for others that sell for $2500-$3500 and then there are custom brands (Taylor, Harrelson) that use their block for trumpets costing $3000-7,000. There are certainly differences among among these. Their stencil instruments may operate on advice from the seller. Custom brands emphasize the importance of the bells and leadpipes they use. Still, to my mind, the difference between A and B is not big and C sure seems to charge a premium when they are outsourcing the most challenging part (the valves).

Chinese instrument manufacturing has a long history and across the board they've really brought the quality of their instruments. I don't think they're up to the level of Taiwanese or Japanese manufacturing but they're getting there. They've taken on whole fields. I have a kid that plays violin and basically every violin under $5000 now is Chinese made. For violins, the progression seems to go (1) factory violins (2) workshop violins (a small group of people making or finishing violins) and (3) bench violins (handmade by one person). Violin is different because they can also sort the instruments into categories after production and before labeling them. With euphonium, I'm assuming bells get stamped well before that stage, so it's not as if Jinbao can send their highest production instruments to one group and their lowest to another.

My gut feeling is that it's implausible that (1) Wessex is the a major driver on innovation in this field or that (2) Jinbao is making special advances for Wessex (or other brands) while not including them in their other models. Two examples: it sounds like all of these models once suffered from cross-threading and it also sounds like the mouthpieces have improved on them all. I suspect these are things many people complained to them about and that they have fixed over time. It may be that Wessex has helped get higher quality historic models to them or has sent professionals to discuss with them, but China also has a gazillion people playing brass who have studied throughout the world and are surely offering opinions on production. I don't know. How big is Wessex? Do they have people on their staff with manufacturing experience? I may be wrong about this and that's why I was curious if someone could compare them. Surely someone here is in a band that has three recent different versions of the entry, compensating euphonium.

[comebackplayer]

Or maybe a simpler way to say this is that Wessex sells around 100 brass instruments, so what are the chances they have offered significant value added to what Jinbao was already doing? Wessex looks like it has only been a major seller since 2012. It's possible that since the founder is a tuba player they have improved the low brass, but they also sell bugles and herald trumpets and piccolo trombones and on and on.

[massmanute]

It is my understanding that Schiller (Jim Laabs), Wessex, and Mack Brass are all “stenciled” Jinbao horns. I ALSO, thought this was the case with John Packer…but was told by someone that the JP horns (and Eastman) are NOT Jinbao (but hasn’t said which Chinese company/factory makes them)).

Anyone aware of an article/blog post/wiki page that tracks this info???

MZEP-1150L and MZEP-1150S compensating euphoniums are apparently Jinbao stencil horns. Even the model number (1150) sounds like Jinbao. I've been quite happy with mine.

[iMav]

MZEP-1150L and MZEP-1150S compensating euphoniums are apparently Jinbao stencil horns. Even the model number (1150) sounds like Jinbao. I've been quite happy with mine.

The MZEP-1150S is $770 shipped to the US. ��
($699 for the lacquer version!)

[iMav]

MZEP-1150L and MZEP-1150S compensating euphoniums are apparently Jinbao stencil horns. Even the model number (1150) sounds like Jinbao. I've been quite happy with mine.

Given recent vendor/reseller discussions...this begs the question... Where did you buy your Monzani horn? musicstore.com ??
(this will lead to additional questions. )

[Shawn]

Or maybe a simpler way to say this is that Wessex sells around 100 brass instruments, so what are the chances they have offered significant value added to what Jinbao was already doing? Wessex looks like it has only been a major seller since 2012. It's possible that since the founder is a tuba player they have improved the low brass, but they also sell bugles and herald trumpets and piccolo trombones and on and on.

Yup.

Carol are an interesting case and AFAIK they are only starting to dip their toes into low brass with a trombone, and have not produced a euphonium.
They started as a percussion shop and high brass slowly became their thing.
The trumpets and fluegels are top-class.
Curiously, they licensed the "Phat Puppy" design back from Andy Taylor and will start making co-branded pocket fluegels. Not sure how much demand there'll be, but my Carol pocket trumpet is just the ticket for travel/getting audiences to stare.

[massmanute]

The MZEP-1150S is $770 shipped to the US. ��
($699 for the lacquer version!)

Those are quite good prices for a Jinbao 1150. However, I'm pretty sure you are looking at the price including value added tax. When you buy in the US from Germany you don't pay value added tax, which on a 649 Euro purchase (the current price of the lacquer version in Euros) ends up subtracting about 103 Eros. The price, including shipping, ends up being about $583 for the lacquer version, including shipping to the US, at today's exchange rate. For the Silver version it ends up being about $649, including shipping.

A while back I checked prices on importing a Jinbao 1150 directly from China and the representative I talked to actually quoted a higher price than buying from musicstore.com for one instrument, including shipping. And the anticipated shipping time was longer when coming from China than from musicstore.com.

[massmanute]

Given recent vendor/reseller discussions...this begs the question... Where did you buy your Monzani horn? musicstore.com ??
(this will lead to additional questions. )

Yes, I bought my Monzani horn from musicstore.com.

Shipping was a bit slower than what musicstore quoted by about 2 weeks, but the horn was well packed and arrived without damage.

There are a few other international vendors that sell under the Monzani brand, but I think musicstore.com is the biggest of them, and they also have the best price.

As you already know from your experience, Thomann is another German vendor of music products that has good prices. I don't think Thomann sells a compensating euphonium that beats the price of the Monzani-1150L from musicstore.com.

I understand that both Thomann and musicstore are very large on-line vendors of musical products, but Thomann is by far the largest. Also, in my experience Thomann's shipping is a lot faster, based on a couple of smaller purchases I made from Thomann compared to the larger purchase I made from musicstore.com.

Back to the horn I bought from musicstore. It has been said that some clone or near-clone vendors frequently mentioned in these discussions might exercise a higher level of quality control on their instruments. I don't know. All I can say is that I am very happy with my horn. There were a few minor problems, but none that I couldn't deal with at home, especially given the price. I figure the instrument is more than 90% as good as a comparable Yamaha instrument at less then 10% of the price. Compared to other clone and near-clone vendors it is probably more than 95% as good at less than half the price of the comparable instrument from most of those vendors (Jim Laabs being an exception).

For many people the extra level of confidence/comfort in purchasing from the other clone or near-clone vendors is worth it, and I can't argue with that. And I can't argue with the fact that at least one of them helps support this site, and that is important. However, for me the price difference boiled down to a go vs. no-go decision on whether I could buy an instrument.

[iMav]

I was floored by the price I got my Schiller for back in 2011. Given the quality of the horn, how it sounds/plays/etc, the idea that a new one can be delivered to my door for $600-700 is jaw-dropping.

Has there ever been a better time for amateur players to get their hands on quality horns?!