Bold New Experiment with Piston Valve Maintenance. Wanna Join Me?

[davewerden]

I just cleaned my horn again, largely to get rid of the crud that builds up at the bottom of the pistons and to a lesser extent to clean the little coating that develops inside the tubes. Wouldn't it be nice if we could reduce that valve buildup?

Then I saw a post on Facebook about oiling valves. Many folks talked about how long they can go between oiling with [brand] oil. One technician responded that it is a fallacy to talk about when valves NEED oil - they should be oiled daily, regardless of whether they are slow or sticking. Oil can help protect that metals.

I have previously tried 2 methods: 1) oiling when something got slow or started to stick, and 2) oiling before I practice each day.

Now I am introducing the "Dave Werden Patented () Oiling Method Number 3." This is an experiment. In version 2 above, I'd oil the valves and then proceed to blow air and various other...stuff... into the horn and onto the valves. Then when I got done I put the horn away (after draining water from all the tubes). Any crud that had gotten on the pistons would sit there in the metal petri dish and "evolve" until I practiced next time.

I'm going back to Hetmann #1 now, which is pretty good at staying around and not evaporating quickly. But I'm reversing the oiling procedure a bit. Each day when my practice concludes, I take out the pistons, wipe them off, wipe out the bottom space where the spring rests under the piston, and then re-oil. Then I put the horn away. The next day I begin practicing with smooth valves, which is nice. But more importantly, I have cleaned off the bio-ingredients from the pistons and added the protection of the oil. [I'm also adding a once-a-week procedure where I swab out the casings and clean the bottom cap before re-oiling.]

Does that make sense? Anyway, I'm going to keep up the process and see if the horn stays clean longer. Does anyone else want to try the experiment? If so, please report your findings here (as I will later).

[iMav]

This is what I try to do regularly. (several years ago I heard that this was preferable...so that is what I started doing.)

[davewerden]

This is what I try to do regularly. (several years ago I heard that this was preferable...so that is what I started doing.)

Well, there goes my patent!!

[Pat]

I just cleaned my horn again, largely to get rid of the crud that builds up at the bottom of the pistons and to a lesser extent to clean the little coating that develops inside the tubes. Wouldn't it be nice if we could reduce that valve buildup?

Then I saw a post on Facebook about oiling valves. Many folks talked about how long they can go between oiling with [brand] oil. One technician responded that it is a fallacy to talk about when valves NEED oil - they should be oiled daily, regardless of whether they are slow or sticking. Oil can help protect that metals.

I have previously tried 2 methods: 1) oiling when something got slow or started to stick, and 2) oiling before I practice each day.

Now I am introducing the "Dave Werden Patented () Oiling Method Number 3." This is an experiment. In version 2 above, I'd oil the valves and then proceed to blow air and various other...stuff... into the horn and onto the valves. Then when I got done I put the horn away (after draining water from all the tubes). Any crud that had gotten on the pistons would sit there in the metal petri dish and "evolve" until I practiced next time.

I'm going back to Hetmann #1 now, which is pretty good at staying around and not evaporating quickly. But I'm reversing the oiling procedure a bit. Each day when my practice concludes, I take out the pistons, wipe them off, wipe out the bottom space where the spring rests under the piston, and then re-oil. Then I put the horn away. The next day I begin practicing with smooth valves, which is nice. But more importantly, I have cleaned off the bio-ingredients from the pistons and added the protection of the oil. [I'm also adding a once-a-week procedure where I swab out the casings and clean the bottom cap before re-oiling.]

Does that make sense? Anyway, I'm going to keep up the process and see if the horn stays clean longer. Does anyone else want to try the experiment? If so, please report your findings here (as I will later).

Are you swabbing out the casings with a brush and water, or what?

[davewerden]

Are you swabbing out the casings with a brush and water, or what?

For this type of routine, where I am not swabbing ugly crud, I use a smooth micro fiber cloth, which I push through with one of my HW brushes. The fact that there is a brush inside the cloth as I push it through helps it fill out the cylinder more smoothly (in my head, anyway). I don't wet the cloth or anything.

If I have ugly buildup after weeks or months of neglect, I start with the largest HW brush, spray it with Alisyn solvent, and then run it through. I clean the brush and repeat. If the cylinder passes my eyeball test, then I use the same micro fiber process I described above.

[carbogast]

I've been oiling *after* practice for years based on the advice of Mike Milnarik, a Boston area tuba pro. He publishes a nice daily routine and to quote from it: "Best time to oil your valves... AFTER you finish practicing/playing. It will help to prevent build up in your valves that will begin to grow when the instrument isn't being played.". I do one other thing that may be helpful: I don't put the instrument in it's case after practicing, but keep it upright in it's stand. This is to keep the goop that collects in the bottom caps from getting into the rest of the horn. If I know that my next playing will require using the case, then my oiling routine includes removing the pistons and caps, swabbing the casing and cleaning the bottom caps. Since I rehearse at least once a week, this keeps things pretty clean.

[CousinJack]

As my instrument has just been serviced I will join you in this endeavour, it does make sense thinking about it.

[iMav]

Much of this (at least for ME) comes down to time. I currently keep my horns in a locker in my local college fine arts building. (I rehearse with both the college and community bands there and also do most of my practicing there (lots of individual practice rooms available.) If I need to run back to work, I may not always have time to wipe down the valves and oil them.

[tokuno]

I perform a post-practice clean/oil out of necessity, otherwise my Sterling's recalcitrant 2nd valve acts up. Seemed a nuisance initially, but like flossing and brushing before bed, has become a mindless, quick habit.
My music room has an attached kitchen with a large stainless sink & faucet with a pull-out hose, so I pull the main slide and set it aside, then pull and rinse the mouthpiece, lock the 4th and run water into the leadpipe, depressing the valves in turn to flush it all.
Blow the water out, re-insert the main, and oil the valves.
It's almost quicker to do than to describe, and the reward is a clean, consistent horn (insignificant amount of gunk when I perform a major clean once or twice a year, whereas I used to accumulate large globs of green stuff and have to laboriously disassemble and thoroughly clean much more frequently).

[dsurkin]

[snip]Now I am introducing the "Dave Werden Patented () Oiling Method Number 3." [snip]

I am reminded of a one-man play I saw on Broadway a number of years ago, about Louis Armstrong (I'm sorry I forget the actor's name; he segued perfectly from sounding like Armstrong to sounding like his manager Joe Glaser [of course, I never heard Glaser speak; this was more a matter of meeting my expectations of what the voice would be]). Anyway, one of the scenes was Armstrong in his dressing room after a concert. The actor completely disassembled the trumpet and cleaned it while talking to the unseen others in the room. I assumed at the time that this was based on what Armstrong actually did after each concert.

I'm sorry, Dave, but it's possible that Armstrong had done it first, and that the U.S. Patent Office may consider your method to be "prior art."

[iMav]

[QUOTE=dsurkin;164328]Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 (DE 101XTG9 mouthpiece in the drawer)
Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76[/QUOTE]


On a completely different note…I guess your passion is piano and you “second” on low brass? (Given what you own piano and keyboard-wise along with your Mack Brass and pBone horns.)

[dsurkin]

[QUOTE=dsurkin;164328]Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 (DE 101XTG9 mouthpiece in the drawer)
Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76

On a completely different note…I guess your passion is piano and you “second” on low brass? (Given what you own piano and keyboard-wise along with your Mack Brass and pBone horns.) [/QUOTE]
Yes, but slightly more nuanced: my first instrument in fourth grade was baritone horn, then I concentrated on piano. I kept up with baritone horn in college but by that time piano was my main instrument. I gigged throughout my twenties with a succession of rock bands, jazz bands, wedding/bar mitzvah bands, and (my favorite gig) a 16-piece jazz stage band. In my 30s I could finally afford the Steinway of my dreams and resumed classical lessons. I used to give house concerts once a year. Then came arthritis. After a few years of hearing me b*tching and moaning about how I couldn't play at my accustomed level, my wife bought me the euphonium. I now play first trombone with a local orchestra and third-chair euphonium with a semi-pro community band. My wife is a very good pianist, and the Steinway gets a lot of use in our house.

[davewerden]

Just reporting back on my new system, which includes daily post-practice BlowDry, mouthpiece cleaning, and re-oiling with Al Cass.

I last had the horn cleaned about 3 months ago. Normally by this time I would need to give it a good rinse outside (not possible until this week) or have it cleaned by my tech. Stuff still accumulates in the bottom cap, but I wipe out the cap every week or two, while the gunk is still liquid. I check to see if it is time to clean the horn by running a swab through the piston caucades. When the horn has gone a month or two since cleaning, I'll usually see some slime on the swab.

As of today there is no slime in any of the caucades. And another sign, which usually starts to appear after a month or two, is the vent on each piston starts to get closed off partially (or more). Check out the photo of my piston from today:



I have to conclude that A) using petroleum oil is my best path, and especially that B) the daily drying, disinfecting/drying with alcohol, and re-oiling is paying off!

[euphdude]

Actually, after watching a great Shires YouTube video published a few years back concerning maintenance of their trombone rotary valves, they recommended oiling them after every time you played. I’ve always tended to do that with piston valves anyway, but after seeing that video, the whole process has become an ingrained habit for me. It totally makes sense to me - remove any small amount of cruddy film when you wipe off the piston, apply fresh oil, and put away the instrument. Moreover, the oil will help drive water out the instrument and prevent any lime deposits from forming upon storage - also a good thing.

[euphdude]

I have to conclude that A) using petroleum oil is my best path, and especially that B) the daily drying, disinfecting/drying with alcohol, and re-oiling is paying off!

I’m not surprised - I wrote on this forum a long time ago about my consultation with Matt Walters when Dillon was exhibiting at the Army conference. I had been using Hetman piston oil, and I had these ugly deposits accumulating on the piston ports and tuning slides - it was disgusting, and I had to give the instrument a bath every couple of months. Matt suggested Blue Juice, which is a petroleum distillate with some sort of cleaning chemical additive. I haven’t had any of those deposits since I switched, and sometimes I use off brand valve oil like Bach, Holton, Roche-Thomas, and even Al Cass - the most important thing is that it says petroleum distillates. The problem with Al Cass is it is essentially highly refined kerosene, and it evaporates really quickly. I did some brief experimenting years ago with the lamp oil/motor oil concoctions based on the old Tubenet recipes. I have found several other recipes online, and when I tried it previously, I think I wasn’t adding enough motor oil. I never moved away from the 1 drop of motor oil per oz of lamp oil which a well known tech said was great for tight valves. I think I would have had longer lasting lubrication by adding more motor oil - I’ve bought a bunch of lamp oil, and as soon as I empty a couple of other bottles I have, I’m going to do some experimentation. Will report back on the results.

I read the Art Lehman article here and recall Glenn Call’s comments on the old tuba-euph listserv (prior to Tubenet) that the old Marine band players would FLOOD their valves with oil, and put a big shot down the leadpipe as well. Most of the petroleum oils are cheaper, and with the lamp oil especially, there is no reason not to saturate the valves with oil. Since I’ve adopted this approach, I hardly ever have to give the horn a bath, and my valves never stick. And with all that oil, you are driving out water which helps prevent lime deposits or biofilm growth. The only downside to this approach I’m aware of is all this oil will thin out even the thickest tuning slide grease in just a few weeks time - compare that to my trombone where the main tuning slide grease can go 6 months and not need lubrication.