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Thread: Bold New Experiment with Piston Valve Maintenance. Wanna Join Me?

  1. #11
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Valley City, North Dakota, USA
    Posts
    1,314
    [QUOTE=dsurkin;164328]Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 (DE 101XTG9 mouthpiece in the drawer)
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76[/QUOTE]


    On a completely different note…I guess your passion is piano and you “second” on low brass? (Given what you own piano and keyboard-wise along with your Mack Brass and pBone horns.)
    Last edited by iMav; 10-19-2022 at 09:03 AM.
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    Valley City State University Concert Band
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    Larry Herzog Jr.

    All things EUPHONIUM! Guilded server

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    NYC metro area
    Posts
    523
    Quote Originally Posted by iMav View Post
    [QUOTE=dsurkin;164328]Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 (DE 101XTG9 mouthpiece in the drawer)
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76



    On a completely different note…I guess your passion is piano and you “second” on low brass? (Given what you own piano and keyboard-wise along with your Mack Brass and pBone horns.)
    [/QUOTE]
    Yes, but slightly more nuanced: my first instrument in fourth grade was baritone horn, then I concentrated on piano. I kept up with baritone horn in college but by that time piano was my main instrument. I gigged throughout my twenties with a succession of rock bands, jazz bands, wedding/bar mitzvah bands, and (my favorite gig) a 16-piece jazz stage band. In my 30s I could finally afford the Steinway of my dreams and resumed classical lessons. I used to give house concerts once a year. Then came arthritis. After a few years of hearing me b*tching and moaning about how I couldn't play at my accustomed level, my wife bought me the euphonium. I now play first trombone with a local orchestra and third-chair euphonium with a semi-pro community band. My wife is a very good pianist, and the Steinway gets a lot of use in our house.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 mouthpiece
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL and Faxx 7C mouthpieces (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo; RIP) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  3. #13
    Just reporting back on my new system, which includes daily post-practice BlowDry, mouthpiece cleaning, and re-oiling with Al Cass.

    I last had the horn cleaned about 3 months ago. Normally by this time I would need to give it a good rinse outside (not possible until this week) or have it cleaned by my tech. Stuff still accumulates in the bottom cap, but I wipe out the cap every week or two, while the gunk is still liquid. I check to see if it is time to clean the horn by running a swab through the piston caucades. When the horn has gone a month or two since cleaning, I'll usually see some slime on the swab.

    As of today there is no slime in any of the caucades. And another sign, which usually starts to appear after a month or two, is the vent on each piston starts to get closed off partially (or more). Check out the photo of my piston from today:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have to conclude that A) using petroleum oil is my best path, and especially that B) the daily drying, disinfecting/drying with alcohol, and re-oiling is paying off!
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
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    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  4. #14
    Actually, after watching a great Shires YouTube video published a few years back concerning maintenance of their trombone rotary valves, they recommended oiling them after every time you played. I’ve always tended to do that with piston valves anyway, but after seeing that video, the whole process has become an ingrained habit for me. It totally makes sense to me - remove any small amount of cruddy film when you wipe off the piston, apply fresh oil, and put away the instrument. Moreover, the oil will help drive water out the instrument and prevent any lime deposits from forming upon storage - also a good thing.
    - Scott

    Euphoniums: Dillon 967, Monzani MZEP-1150S, Dillon 1067 (kid’s horn)
    Bass Trombones: Greenhoe GB5-3G, Getzen 1052FDR, JP232
    King Jiggs P-bone

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    I have to conclude that A) using petroleum oil is my best path, and especially that B) the daily drying, disinfecting/drying with alcohol, and re-oiling is paying off!
    I’m not surprised - I wrote on this forum a long time ago about my consultation with Matt Walters when Dillon was exhibiting at the Army conference. I had been using Hetman piston oil, and I had these ugly deposits accumulating on the piston ports and tuning slides - it was disgusting, and I had to give the instrument a bath every couple of months. Matt suggested Blue Juice, which is a petroleum distillate with some sort of cleaning chemical additive. I haven’t had any of those deposits since I switched, and sometimes I use off brand valve oil like Bach, Holton, Roche-Thomas, and even Al Cass - the most important thing is that it says petroleum distillates. The problem with Al Cass is it is essentially highly refined kerosene, and it evaporates really quickly. I did some brief experimenting years ago with the lamp oil/motor oil concoctions based on the old Tubenet recipes. I have found several other recipes online, and when I tried it previously, I think I wasn’t adding enough motor oil. I never moved away from the 1 drop of motor oil per oz of lamp oil which a well known tech said was great for tight valves. I think I would have had longer lasting lubrication by adding more motor oil - I’ve bought a bunch of lamp oil, and as soon as I empty a couple of other bottles I have, I’m going to do some experimentation. Will report back on the results.

    I read the Art Lehman article here and recall Glenn Call’s comments on the old tuba-euph listserv (prior to Tubenet) that the old Marine band players would FLOOD their valves with oil, and put a big shot down the leadpipe as well. Most of the petroleum oils are cheaper, and with the lamp oil especially, there is no reason not to saturate the valves with oil. Since I’ve adopted this approach, I hardly ever have to give the horn a bath, and my valves never stick. And with all that oil, you are driving out water which helps prevent lime deposits or biofilm growth. The only downside to this approach I’m aware of is all this oil will thin out even the thickest tuning slide grease in just a few weeks time - compare that to my trombone where the main tuning slide grease can go 6 months and not need lubrication.
    - Scott

    Euphoniums: Dillon 967, Monzani MZEP-1150S, Dillon 1067 (kid’s horn)
    Bass Trombones: Greenhoe GB5-3G, Getzen 1052FDR, JP232
    King Jiggs P-bone

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853
    I remember someone posting somewhere that Matt Walters said, “Use Blue Juice, you’ll thank me later”. Maybe that was you Scott. I switched to BJ several years ago. It works great for me. The only thing about Blue Juice I don’t like is the container it comes in so I use some old Yamaha Synthetic containers I washed out. Just label them “BJ”. The stock bottle is bulky in my pocket and too much comes out all at once. I also oil after practice and putting away my horn.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  7. #17
    Firstly, I brush my teeth before I play, and wash my mouthpiece EVERY time I play. This prevents any material finding its way into the valves. I clean the leadpipe every week and was the interior of the instrument every month. I do this by putting a hose on the leadpipe with the valves and slides in situ as this allows the water to follow through all the valves and connecting tubes that bore brushes cannot reach. After I’ve done this the instrument is disassembled and then each component cleaned individually. I don’t have problems with sticking valves, ever. I oil perhaps twice a week. I feel keeping the hooter clean is more important that persistent piling which in itself can lead to build up, particularly with noxious heavy oils like Blue Juice or La Tromba.

    The materials are simple - lint free cloth so no possibility of particles escaping and finding their way to somewhere they shouldn’t, valve oil, Selmer Tuning Slide & Cork Grease for the slides, and Slide-o-mix Rapid Comfort for the main tuning slide.
    Nowt

    Retired

  8. I have a tough relationship with valves. I have some sort of odd mouth chemistry. My lips peel and I develop some sort of mucus. I always get a first and maybe second valve that seizes if l leave it for a few days. Plus kidney stones, which I think is related to all of this. I definitely have to remove valves and swab the leadpipe on my euphonium after playing to keep them from sticking in the next session. If I wait until the next session, I have to remove them any way because they're already stuck. I've taken to using the cheap hardware store parafin-based lamp oil because even as little as I play valve instruments, I use a lot of it. Any tight tolerance valves that I have used get gunked in short order, but older valves with bigger gaps seem to be ok.

    At one point after playing my euph a lot, I had to put it down for about a month. When I came back to it, there was something in the first valve passages that flaked off, almost like a giant piece of tropical fish food algae, but it was shaped like the inner valve passage. This of course prompted a full horn cleaning, especially everything up to the main tuning slide.

    I would probably benefit from one of those older horns that has a condensation/tuning loop in the leadpipe. In the case of my Festivo, everything that goes into the leadpipe is directly gravity fed into the first valve.

    The kidney stone issue is connected because whatever my system produces, it solidifies as calcium oxalate in my kidneys. Along with drinking a lot of water, the dr. recommends drinking something highly acidic every day - like lemon water or straight vinegar- to dissolve whatever deposits have shown up in my kidneys. I notice the lemon water (and even orange juice) seems to dissolve the junk in my mouth as well. So I imagine that I should be also cleaning my horn regularly with something about the same acidity.

    I oil my old trombone rotaries once a year without fail, whether they need it or not. Except a Kanstul with tight valves, which I had to have lapped. Still, oiling them causes them to seize (I assume because the oil causes whatever condenses out of my saliva to expand and bind). But I clean and lube the outsides of the inner slides a couple times a week, and spray a lot of distilled water.

    Valve instruments are really a secondary for me, so the bother of all this cleaning and lubing that I don't do for my primary instrument seems a little excessive, but I do enjoy my valve instruments. I think Dave's method holds a lot of merit, especially for people with a lot of stuff in their saliva that calcifies and seizes valves.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by hyperbolica View Post
    I have some sort of odd mouth chemistry. My lips peel and I develop some sort of mucus.
    Hyperbolica - I'm the same way when it comes to lips peeling while playing - it hasn't contributed to any valve trouble, but it does tend to accumulate on the mouthpiece rim, and even become uncomfortable every once in a while, while creating an uneven playing surface - for this reason, I rinse my mouthpiece with water after every playing session - to get rid of the buildup on the rim. Doug Elliott's lexan rims for some reason seem to stay cleaner - I have no idea why, but I have never observed any issues while playing on those rims. Oh, and silver seems worse than gold when it comes to accumulation of lip debris. I know, not a very appetizing topic, but we brass players do share some of the same challenges.
    - Scott

    Euphoniums: Dillon 967, Monzani MZEP-1150S, Dillon 1067 (kid’s horn)
    Bass Trombones: Greenhoe GB5-3G, Getzen 1052FDR, JP232
    King Jiggs P-bone

  10. Quote Originally Posted by euphdude View Post
    Doug Elliott's lexan rims for some reason seem to stay cleaner - I have no idea why, but I have never observed any issues while playing on those rims.
    I was about to make the same observation. Doug has also told me that he gets less gunk accumulation on his lexan rims. Must be a real thing.

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