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Thread: Producing A Reliable Valve System

  1. #1

    Producing A Reliable Valve System

    Hello everyone,

    I was travelling home after playing in a gig earlier today and I was thinking about what qualities would make a reliable valve system. I often hear musicians complaining about their valves and I know that some instrument brands use a high quality metal for the valve but a inferior quality metal for the inner valve casing which causes lots of problems for musicians.

    I equally know that Besson have a reputation for producing one of the most reliable valve systems in the current market and the way that they create valves is a very well kept secret.

    My question to you all is what material and structure would make the most reliable valve system?

    Best Wishes,

    Micah Dominic Parsons
    Best Wishes,

    Micah Dominic Parsons

    Website - https://mdpmicahdominicpar.wixsite.com/my-site
    Blog - https://theblogofabrassmusician1994.blogspot.com/

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  2. #2
    Hi Micah,

    While they appear complicated, valve manufacturing is not as secret as it would seem. It ain't nuclear physics after all.
    That said, valves surely can make or break a brass instrument. If we look at a brass instrument as a machine, the valve set will immediately stand out as the most important section. Valves are moving parts, meaning they're also susceptible and you want them kept well maintained.

    If we look to the requirements for a good set of valves you want a couple of things checked off:

    -Just the right amount of space between the valve casing and the valve surface. You want it to be as air thight as possible while still guarantying a smooth valve operation. Generally speaking the more modern the instrument is, the tighter the valves are and the better the instrument will play. The tightness of valves influences responsiveness, articulation, intonation, resistance, etc.

    -The right material for the valve casing and the valve surface. You want something that is smooth to minimize friction yet hard enough to resist wear and tear. Currently there are three main types of materials used for valve surfaces: Monel, Nickel-plated brass and stainless steel.
    Monel is used by Vincent Bach trumpets while Schilke and Edwards use nickel-plated brass valves for their instruments. In the last years we've seen a gradual shift to stainless steel valves as they perform equally well while being a lot cheaper to manufacture. I know that Besson uses stainless steel pistons for their euphoniums.
    As for the valve casing most manufacturers just stick with some type of copper alloy, it being just brass, bronze or nickel silver. A noteworthy example where the valve casing does matter more is when the manufacturer uses a valve made of aluminium. In recent years in an effort to create lighter and therefore faster vales, some trombone manufacturers use an anodized aluminium version of the Thayer valve on a model of trombone. When this anodizing process is not done well, the brass of the valve casing and aluminium can chemically react causing irreparable damage.

    -The right logistics: the right springs for the right size of pistons, good tubing layout to accoustically perform as best as possible, good quality valve guides, quiet valve action etc. This sounds easier than done especially in the case of euphoniums where repertoire sometimes demands trumpet-like virtuosity with valves that are 2-3 times the mass and bore of those of a trumpet. Add the compensating system with it and you see where this is going.

    -Last but certainly not least: good maintenance! As aforementioned, valves are moving parts that require more maintenance than you would think. It differs between pistons and rotors, but I've heard the recommendation of oiling your pistons at least once a week. By lubricating your valves frequently you also prolong the service life of the valves as it minimizes friction between surfaces and therefore wear and tear. Also, the oil helps with guiding debris and mineral deposits downwards so it collects in the bottom cap and does not interfere with the valve action.

    To the question as to what material and structure would make the most reliable valve system I think we can observe that in most cases, the valve is not the problem nowadays but the lack of maintenance is. Of course there are plenty of examples where the valves are just not as good as they should be, but a regular cleaning and maintenance can go a long way.
    It might seem obvious to point out, but the average bloke playing his euph between a pint and a sandwich once or twice a week can complain all day long about his valves not working as they should, but I would look elsewhere to fix the problem...

    As far as I know, J. Meinlschmidt is the largest independant manufacturer of valves for professional instruments on the current market. If you're curious for the more technical aspects of how valves are made I suggest to look up their website. They provide the valves used in instruments by Alexander, Hirsbrunner and plenty of others. I suspect that B&S (and therefore, Besson) are large enough of a manufacturer to produce their own valves in Markneukirchen. Other valve manufacturers are Jürgen Voigt, René Hagmann, Bauerfeind (Bought up by Adams, they were used on Sterling Virtuoso in the past and I suspect still on Wilson instruments) and lately also Mike Johnson of Manchester who developed his own. Daniel Oberloh is well-known valve replater that brings back worn-out valves and instruments back to life, he also has a website and has been interviewed a couple of times.

    I hope this helps,
    Kind regards,

    Vito
    Last edited by Vito; 06-12-2022 at 07:24 AM.
    Music educator - Brass Instruments Enthusiast - Euphonium Player
    2019 Besson Sovereign 967T-2 - Alliance DC3

  3. #3
    Hello Vito,

    Thank you so much for your detailed message. There is so much to think about in regards to your message. I was rather curious to know what you thought the best valve system for a Euphonium was at the moment and why you think this Euphonium has the best valve system if this is ok?

    Best Wishes,

    Micah Dominic Parsons
    Best Wishes,

    Micah Dominic Parsons

    Website - https://mdpmicahdominicpar.wixsite.com/my-site
    Blog - https://theblogofabrassmusician1994.blogspot.com/

    Facebook Account - https://www.facebook.com/Micah-Domin...05492345484536
    Twitter Account - @MicahDParsons94
    Instagram Account - @MDP.Micah.Dominic.Parsons
    Youtube Account - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRj...KljG3JLcuMs60A

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by MDP.Micah.Dominic.Parsons View Post
    Hello Vito,

    Thank you so much for your detailed message. There is so much to think about in regards to your message. I was rather curious to know what you thought the best valve system for a Euphonium was at the moment and why you think this Euphonium has the best valve system if this is ok?

    Best Wishes,

    Micah Dominic Parsons
    Of course Micah!

    I try to refrain from stating what is "the best" as that is nearly always personal and depends on what you're looking for. Nickel plated pistons allow for easy replating (though a valve job is never easy!!!) as nickel plates very well over brass, while to this day there isn't a good way to replate stainless steel pistons and I have no idea in the case of Monel. So from a endurance perspective, you might want to go with nickel pistons as they are 1. a tried and well tested material and 2. more straight forward to bring back to life. Though nearly all pro-level euphoniums on the market use stainless steel valves.

    From my experience, a valve set on an instrument that gets used regurlarly has a life expectancy of around 40-50 years depending on maintanance and frequency of use. I recently did a cleaning job on a Bach trumpet build in 2002 where the compression of the valves were already on the point of requiring a thicker oil. I also had a leaky 4th valve on my B&H Sovereign from 1980 some years ago.

    Miel Adams developed a short-action compensating valve set for the euphonium during the last decade that is now produced in limited numbers. It uses oval ports in a different layout (with an inverted second valve loop for example) to allow for a shorter action and therefore faster playing in theory, but can also influence articulation and centering. I've yet to try one myself but they look awesome!

    So to recap, I don't know what the best valve set is on a euph. In function they all serve the same purpose about equally well, certainly in the case of name-brands like Besson, Yamaha, Adams, etc. except from some rotten apples. The ones on my Sovereign work fine for me, while the ones on my late Sterling felt very spaced-out. Some Adams euphoniums also use very large buttons that make you really notice the amount of mass that moves up and down. Then also comes the question if you want to use metal or synthetic valve guides, dampeners, plastic coated springs, etc. It's all a bit personal really :-)

    I hope this gives you some answer to your question!
    Music educator - Brass Instruments Enthusiast - Euphonium Player
    2019 Besson Sovereign 967T-2 - Alliance DC3

  5. #5
    Jumping in a little late, and without all the refinement of the existing discussion...

    A simple factor is the clearance between piston and cylinder (mentioned above). As mentioned, tighter is better for the "blow" side (response, intonation), but it means one much actually keep the horn clean (not my strong suit). Of course, even looser pistons will begin to stick at some point if the horn is not cleaned. So which type is better? Looser, so they aren't as easily vulnerable to dirt? Or tighter, so you get better response and intonation? We might all draw that line at different places. Adams valves are quite "tight" in that regard. But when the horn is kept clean, they are very fast and smooth.

    Another factor I have thought about is weight of the piston. Lighter is better. Stainless steel is pretty heavy, so that is a drawback. Stainless steel will maintain its shape very well, which is an advantage. My old Besson had plated pistons that seemed to warp a bit over time (I THINK a later Besson's monel pistons did as well). The valves would start to stick at that point. Danny Vinson had this happen and took some very find abrasive to go over the shiny spots on the piston (they were shiny because they were putting more pressure on the cylinder wall, presumably).

    A piston is soldered together with the outer shell and all the caucades passing through it. Stresses may develop if the tubing is not "relaxed" in physical position before being soldered. It's the same with the whole horn fitting together, but the caucades probably have less stress on them. Anyway, a stainless steel piston wall will be better at staying in its intended shape.

    Glenn Call (U.S. Marine Band, and publisher of Euphonia magazine) had a tech go over his old Boosey's pistons. The guy added more bevel to the top/bottom and also cut off some of the extra skirt on the bottom, leaving enough space after the final port to offer as good a seal as needed. And he opened the vent holes more. The valves were therefore lighter and had less surface area to create friction. They were the best I had ever felt at the time.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

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