Buying without trying? - Adams E3

[Woltz]

I had a bit of spare time the other day and dropped by my local music shop. They had a Shires Q41 and an Eastman 826S. So I spent some time with both and thought I'd chuck up some of my thoughts just as an amateur. For mouthpiece, I used my Alliance 3A.

Sound
The Shires was a step above the Eastman in my opinion. The Eastman was solid but I found it was more difficult to colour the sound and it tended to want to sit more on the brighter side. The Shires was much more receptive and flexible and had more 'soul'.

Build quality
It's impossible to predict long term but the Shires already had issues with the 1st valve guide and the valve button pearl insert also popped off whilst I was playing. This is a brand new instrument so the issue with the valve guide doesn't inspire confidence for long term durability. The threads for the valve cap also not the greatest.

Intonation
The instruments overall played flatter than my band Sovereign but that doesn't bother me too much as I tend to play a bit sharp anyway so it balances out. The only time this would be an issue is if I used the supplied Shires 5 mouthpiece which made the instrument even flatter than when I played with my Alliance m/p. However, my feeling is the supplied mouthpiece is too small so I'd never use it anyway.
Both instruments are way better than my Sovereign above open treble C. The only absolutely horrible note was on the Shires where the treble clef E played open was about 20c flat.

Valves
The Eastman valves were solid without being exceptional and I could get used to the different feel but they aren't even close to as good as my band Sovereign. The Shires were disappointing. They felt sluggish and given the other issue with the valve guide makes me wonder if this one was one that slipped through QC.

One other general comment is I found them to be a little stuffy in the upper register, although again perhaps this could be just because they are both new instruments that have barely been played.

The outcome of above is that I'm unlikely to buy either based on what I tried in the shop, although I'd get the Shires before the Eastman and hope for a sample where the valves are better if I had to choose between the two. Hopefully I should get my hands on a Neo, a Sovereign and a Prestige in coming weeks to try.

[davewerden]

The outcome of above is that I'm unlikely to buy either based on what I tried in the shop, although I'd get the Shires before the Eastman and hope for a sample where the valves are better if I had to choose between the two.

For what it's worth, most valves don't react well to life at conventions or in music stores. If you are in doubt, just take out one valve as a test. Wipe it down well, put on some oil, and try it again. If that fixes things for even a few runs, the chances are good that the sluggishness was caused by general gunking up of the piston from sitting around and/or other folks blowing into it.

[Woltz]

After trying out the Yamaha Neo and the Bessons (967T Sovereign and 2052 Prestige). The winner was......

A Besson Prestige 2052-8G

[stevevaughn]

After trying out the Yamaha Neo and the Bessons (967T Sovereign and 2052 Prestige). The winner was......

A Besson Prestige 2052-8G

Glad to hear you found a horn! Would love to hear your thoughts on what made you pick the Prestige, compared to all the other horns you tried. You had a solid line-up minus not getting to try an Adams!

[Woltz]

Glad to hear you found a horn! Would love to hear your thoughts on what made you pick the Prestige, compared to all the other horns you tried. You had a solid line-up minus not getting to try an Adams!

Hi Steve,

It was a really interesting process trying so many different horns and going in I actually didn't expect to pick a Prestige. I am a little disappointed that I didn't get the chance to try an Adams but maybe on my next trip to Europe I'll duck into the factory and have a look out of curiosity. I'll have a go at summing up each of the horns I tried briefly.

Eastman 826S - Solid instrument for the price point but the most difficult to get the sound I wanted. The one major criticism being the threads on the valve caps are junk. However, let's acknowledge, at retail prices this would be half the price for a Prestige.

Yamaha Neo - Extremely well built and our 2nd Euph player tried it at the same time I did and actually bought it. She loved it and sounds very good on it (she was playing a very old band-owned Imperial prior to this). For me, it's difficult to put into words but I disliked it from the moment I started playing it. Perhaps I would've liked the Yamaha Custom more if I'd had the chance to try one. There was nothing immediately obviously wrong with it, but it just didn't feel right to me. (Going into this whole process, this was the one I actually expected I would probably buy.)

Shires Q41 - Sound wise the Q41 might've edged the Sovereign for second place to be honest. I really liked how I could colour the sound with it. Valves not up to the standard of the Besson on the particular horn I tried but I suspect with some different springs and a decent clean and oil they would've been improved significantly. I did find the upper range to have too much resistance? (not sure how else to describe it) for my taste though. Build quality still needs some work but at the second cheapest it's still a solid choice and hopefully Eastman/Shires will continue to refine things. As a side note, I really wanted to love the Shires because I have a pre-Eastman Shires Trombone which is a sensational instrument but it was not to be. (It would've been interesting to try a Q40 but I never had that chance.)

Besson Sovereign 967T - Better trigger placement than the Prestige. I did notice the difference with the ergonomics due to the leadpipe wrapping around the bell more than the Prestige but I wouldn't say I had a preference. Very easy to slot and incredibly consistent. More forgiving than the Prestige if you're having a bad day. The sound was very typically Besson but interestingly I found it a bit more difficult to colour the sound away from it's natural point compared to the Prestige and the Shires. However I can understand why so many players love the Sovereign, it's a pleasure to play.

Besson Prestige 2052-8G - First let me start by saying the two negatives: I don't like the angle of the trigger but I'll get used to it and I don't love the yellow lacquer. However, apart from those two things it came out the clear choice when playing. Valves were superb (the best of any of the instruments I tried). The sound was what I was imagining in my head and I found it more flexible than the others. The high range for me I found to be a bit easier than on any of the others (2nd pick for ease of high register would've been the Sovereign). And overall it was just the instrument that I found myself wanting to continue playing even when I'd run out of time at the end of my practice session.

I'm obviously not a pro and so I'm purely guessing here but putting aside the sound concept for a minute, my theory why the Prestige ended up being my choice is that the Prestige to me feels more free blowing than the others. So as I've come across from being primarily a Trombone player it probably suits what I've been used to the most.

One final comment about the elephant in the room. Intonation. The Yamaha, Sovereign and Prestige all suffer the usual issues and the triggers all see a lot of use. From that perspective the Shires and Eastman were much better.

Anyway that's my brief thoughts that immediately come to mind this morning.

[Eupher6]

The decision's been made, so any further comment toward a recommendation is a moot point, but I want to chime in anyway with my thoughts on the Adams E2.

First and most important - for whatever reason, all the Adams euphs I tried - E1 and E2 (have not tried the E3 and probably won't, unless at a conference), they were consistently flat for me. About 30 cents flat, sometimes more depending on the pitch/valve combination. So while I am a big fan of Adams euphs, any horn I purchased would have to be cut down at the factory.

Miel and the boys did that, and they nailed the pitch perfectly.

The only note that is even more than a little out of tune is 4th space G in the bass clef. It's about 40 cents sharp, so the workaround is to finger than note 3rd valve, which aligns the pitch very well.

I do not need a trigger with my E2 (purchased 2017, btw). I cannot say the same for the 967 and the Sterling Virtuoso I owned. Not only were the triggers finicky and needed more maintenance than I thought reasonable (I had Dan Schultz, the Tuba Tinker, install an after-market trigger on the 967), the added weight was a distraction.

My E2 is a standard yellow brass bell, silver plated. Adams' brochure says the bell thickness is 0.031", which is heavier than the E1 I owned at one time (and I prefer the heavier brass). I never quite got used to the SS bell that I had on my E1, so it wasn't a sell item for me.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that this kind of customization can be and is done by Adams. I get a great horn with a great sound, a 6th partial that does NOT need a trigger to tame, and it's my go-to horn for all manner of playing.

[Magikarp]

I have had a couple of people say their Adams was flat - haven't found mine to be so - tuning slide if anything is slightly further out than on my B&H Sovereign. Agree with points about tuning and the G (treble middle A) being sharp - most of the time I play it on 3rd and it's fine, depending on the role of the note in the chord.

It probably sounds a little bit obsessional to those who've not tried an Adams but the intonation is so much better than on any other euphonium I've played, and I have played and owned some pretty exotic stuff. I absolutely bloody love my E2, and am very glad I took the (marginal) risk.

[MichaelSchott]

Intonation on my E3 with SS bell is easily the best of any horn I’ve played. I had mine built with the tuning slide shortened a bit. The 1st and 2nd valve combinations in the treble clef staff are sharp. I play the concert D and G with third valve and that is just slightly sharp

[John Morgan]

I have to admit that what I will say sounds a bit unbelievable, but it is actually the case for me. I received my custom Adams E3 (0.60 gauge brass, SS bell, trigger) in 2016, just over 6 years ago. Initially and even after playing it for a while, it tended to play on the flat side. I had to be really warmed up and have the main slide usually all in to play in tune. But I did get it figured out and it worked for me, although I would have liked the horn to be pitched a wee bit higher than it was. This would be so that I could have the main slide out half an inch or more when in tune to give me room to go in either direction.

Fast forward to now. I have since added a SS leadpipe and a new main trigger setup (which mostly made changes to the main tuning slide so that one leg is male, and the other is female). I have also had the hand brace strengthened with an additional weld on each side.

Now, I have the main tuning slide out perhaps 3/4 of an inch when I am warmed up and ready to play. This has been the case even before the above changes, which were made within the last year. So don't ask me how this has happened. Perhaps I play differently? I am using the same mouthpiece as I have from day one, so no difference there. I am right now just about older than dirt, so maybe that makes some kind of difference. Maybe there is so much crud in my horn (I surely hope not, yuk!) that it shortened the length somehow.

In any event, the tuning has long since become a non-issue on my beloved Adams E3. By the way, it did take a bit to get used to the SS leadpipe. It is surprising, or maybe not, how some seemingly minor changes can have a substantial effect on the playability and sound of a horn. Adams truly allows one to do so many custom things to a euphonium.

[davewerden]

Now, I have the main tuning slide out perhaps 3/4 of an inch when I am warmed up and ready to play. This has been the case even before the above changes, which were made within the last year. So don't ask me how this has happened. Perhaps I play differently? I am using the same mouthpiece as I have from day one, so no difference there. I am right now just about older than dirt, so maybe that makes some kind of difference. Maybe there is so much crud in my horn (I surely hope not, yuk!) that it shortened the length somehow.

Oh, boy - that one may keep me up tonight! I've been trying to figure out a logical reason for this, but I can't. No doubt it is real, and I have experienced similar things myself over the years. But I like knowing WHY!!

[Eupher6]

I have had a couple of people say their Adams was flat - haven't found mine to be so - tuning slide if anything is slightly further out than on my B&H Sovereign. Agree with points about tuning and the G (treble middle A) being sharp - most of the time I play it on 3rd and it's fine, depending on the role of the note in the chord.

It probably sounds a little bit obsessional to those who've not tried an Adams but the intonation is so much better than on any other euphonium I've played, and I have played and owned some pretty exotic stuff. I absolutely bloody love my E2, and am very glad I took the (marginal) risk.

Adams does offer a "shortened" tuning slide which ostensibly compensates for the flat horn, indicating that Adams is aware of this issue to some level. But after having tried the shortened tuning slide, it didn't help much at all. I had to send back the first E2 I tried through Baltimore Brass, and then made arrangements through Austin Custom Brass to get an otherwise stock E2 (0.8mm yellow brass bell, silver-plated) cut down at the factory. And yes, I bought the horn sight unseen and without having the benefit of playing it first. It worked out famously, I think.

I should also mention that the cutting process resulted in the necessity of removing the first valve button before the valve can be removed from the casing. Small price to pay for a great horn!

[Woltz]

This conversation for me highlights how there is still so much for us to learn about instrument design and its relationship to the player. In fact the other thing that became very apparent to me during this process was the difference a mouthpiece can make to intonation (or perhaps more accurately, how large of a difference it can make). I made brief mention about it when I wrote about the testing of the Shires and Eastman. But in relation to the Prestige, when I wrote my previous post I was using my Alliance 3A on the Prestige. I've since swapped to the Alliance 2 that came with the instrument and interestingly it had a significant and positive effect for me personally with intonation on the Prestige, so much so that a number of notes don't require trigger now. And I found that the mouthpiece switch didn't negatively impact any other aspects of my playing, so I'm calling that a win.

I think this experience for me plus what others have said above about mods to their Adams horns really highlights how we all have a combination out there that will fit us, unfortunately it just may be a bit of a process (often with quite a bit of money involved) to narrow that down.

I will say the discussion does make me a tad envious that I wasn't able to try an Adams but this Prestige is beautiful and I have no regrets.

[Eupher6]

This conversation for me highlights how there is still so much for us to learn about instrument design and its relationship to the player. In fact the other thing that became very apparent to me during this process was the difference a mouthpiece can make to intonation (or perhaps more accurately, how large of a difference it can make). I made brief mention about it when I wrote about the testing of the Shires and Eastman. But in relation to the Prestige, when I wrote my previous post I was using my Alliance 3A on the Prestige. I've since swapped to the Alliance 2 that came with the instrument and interestingly it had a significant and positive effect for me personally with intonation on the Prestige, so much so that a number of notes don't require trigger now. And I found that the mouthpiece switch didn't negatively impact any other aspects of my playing, so I'm calling that a win.

I think this experience for me plus what others have said above about mods to their Adams horns really highlights how we all have a combination out there that will fit us, unfortunately it just may be a bit of a process (often with quite a bit of money involved) to narrow that down.

I will say the discussion does make me a tad envious that I wasn't able to try an Adams but this Prestige is beautiful and I have no regrets.

Agreed about design and the individual. Lots and lots of variables to contend with!

I didn't go crazy trying to find the perfect mouthpiece, but I did try more than a few in attempting to address the flatness issue in my Sterling Virtuoso and also in the E1 I owned. Nothing seemed to help appreciably, so that's when I decided to see just how "custom" Adams was willing to go to address my issue. Curiously, I've played at least a half dozen Bessons and a couple of Yamahas over the years and never had this issue. It surfaced only with the Sterling and then with the Adams. It no doubt has no effect on others, but it did me. I'm grateful to Adams for knowing exactly how far down to cut this horn. When I'm warm in an ambient-temperature room, I'll have the tuning slide pulled out maybe a half inch.

Good luck with your Prestige!

[MichaelSchott]

This conversation for me highlights how there is still so much for us to learn about instrument design and its relationship to the player. In fact the other thing that became very apparent to me during this process was the difference a mouthpiece can make to intonation (or perhaps more accurately, how large of a difference it can make). I made brief mention about it when I wrote about the testing of the Shires and Eastman. But in relation to the Prestige, when I wrote my previous post I was using my Alliance 3A on the Prestige. I've since swapped to the Alliance 2 that came with the instrument and interestingly it had a significant and positive effect for me personally with intonation on the Prestige, so much so that a number of notes don't require trigger now. And I found that the mouthpiece switch didn't negatively impact any other aspects of my playing, so I'm calling that a win.

I think this experience for me plus what others have said above about mods to their Adams horns really highlights how we all have a combination out there that will fit us, unfortunately it just may be a bit of a process (often with quite a bit of money involved) to narrow that down.

I will say the discussion does make me a tad envious that I wasn't able to try an Adams but this Prestige is beautiful and I have no regrets.

Only a theory but it could be when we put more air though a horn and rely more on the diaphragm than the embouchure we have better control over intonation. Changing to a larger mouthpiece forces the player to use more air.

[Woltz]

Only a theory but it could be when we put more air though a horn and rely more on the diaphragm than the embouchure we have better control over intonation. Changing to a larger mouthpiece forces the player to use more air.

I never did try the same brand of mouthpiece on the Shires as I compared my Alliance 3A vs the Shires 5 that was shipped with the Q41. The Shires mouthpiece I played much flatter on than the Alliance (although the 3A was a bigger mouthpiece so perhaps something to do with depth they insert into the receiver?).

In the case of the Prestige I believe your hypothesis may be correct, the slightly larger mouthpiece (Alliance 2) requires me to use a bit more air (a requirement for the Prestige to sound its best anyway).

I'm so curious now about trying a larger mouthpiece for my trombone as well because I tended to play a bit sharp on my trombone in the past but I'd always been reluctant to go bigger than a 5GS for fear of losing high range.