New or Used?

[Spotfire]

Hi Everyone,
It has been several years since I have played my tuba and I was looking to downsize to the euphonium. Buying one these days is a challenge due to availability of inventory and locations near me that allow in store trials. Prices have also increased on horns not in stock. I have narrowed my search to four possibilities and am looking for some feedback on which one would be a fun to play and satisfying horn. They are all close in price, so sound and playability are my main considerations. All are from reputable dealers.

1. Used Boosey & Hawks round stamp Sovereign
2. Used Meinl Weston 451
3. New Yamaha 842 Custom (older version without trigger) 1K less than a 642 Neo
4. New Adams Sonic (non-Comp)

I am not interested in a horn from China or India and craftsmanship means more to me than price.

New horns
I have an idea on what I would be getting with the Yamaha sound wise but I am 6 feet tall and worry that the lower lead pipe placement will be an ergonomic issue. I have a four valve Bb large bore tuba (Miraphone 191) so the Adams Sonic is very intriguing to me but there is not a lot of info available yet and most people would advise to get a compensating model. I am not planning to do much more that play for my own fulfillment. Possibly a small ensemble after covid restrictions in CA are ended.

Used horns
I worry about the intonation, playability for a rank amateur with an average ear for tuning, and the consistency between horns with the MW 451 and the B&H. I do not know the date of manufacture of either horn. The MW 451 looks barely used, while the Sovereign has some dents, shows its age and much more usage. Is the B&H worth the gamble? I was hoping for some insight from experienced musicians out there about buying a used horn from a distance.

Thanks for the input,
Spotfire

[davewerden]

First, all the horns you list could be good for your use.

1. Sovereign. Originally a very find instrument, and it would not be less so if it were in good condition. A few dents are not usually a problem (although I am wary of dents in the leadpipe and the small connecting tubes, the latter being very difficult to remove). If it is beaten enough to be misaligned at the joints then it has seen a pretty rough life. Almost any body damage can be repaired, but the cost can build pretty quickly.

2. Meinl. I've never warmed up to that horn, and very few pros are playing it. They are solid, free-blowing horns with a full sound. If it were priced really well it could be fine.

3. 842. It is a short horn, and I would not be comfortable holding it. It might work fine with some kind of lap support. It's very free blowing. The Yamaha sound is not MY preference, but that really is personal taste - there is nothing wrong with its sound.

4. The oddball is the Sonic because it is not compensating. If you don't know the advantages of compensating, see the article linked below. What the article does not really address is the benefit of a non-comp horn. A design like the Sonic's is the "most natural" to blow through 4 valves. Adding compensation adds weight and changes the response. The response is barely affected in the main range, but in the low range where compensation helps you be in tune, compensation adds noticeable stuffiness to the response. Modern horn design has alleviated some of that, but there is no fighting the laws of physics. For typical concert band, playing in small groups, or playing in church/etc. (if you are not covering bass parts), the compensating system is not needed.

The Compensating System

If you want to get into serious, professional-level music, then the compensating system will come in very handy because that low range is used liberally.

[Spotfire]

Hi Dave,
Thank you so much for your input.
Option #1 the B&H Sovereign is on consignment at Baltimore Brass (a forum sponsor I believe) and listed on their website. The estimate for the dent work on the bottom bow, 3rd valve slide, and valve block tubing is $500 to $700 and not recommended because they would have to remove the valve block, bottom bow along with the guard and edge; and it would be several weeks before they could get to it. They believe it was built in the 90's and they say the horn plays well and has good compression for its age. The silverplate needs a good polishing but appears to be 100%. The inside of the case is a little rough if that is any indication on the level of care it has received.

In the meantime, for the exact same price, I found a York Preference 3067 listed on e-bay from an established seller in the UK with 100% feedback. It is fresh out of overhaul and polishing. The serial number is 5007X. It is in pristine condition including the case and it is silver with gold trim. Based on all the information I could find on this forum about these two different instruments, including the Yorks are rare and go quickly. I am now awaiting the safe arrival of the York from England. Thanks for all the great information going back to 2007 I was able to quickly access about the York. The information on this forum was very helpful in making my decision.

So, now it's on to find a good mouthpiece. I have been buzzing around the house on a Schilke 51D and looking at the Alliance WAGR52-3 and DW4AL. It has been 10 years since I played my tuba and I feel like a beginner again. I was hoping the riding a bicycle analogy would apply. Time to find a teacher in the Riverside, CA area.

Being a new member of the forum, I appreciate all the information it contains and those who keep it going.
Thank you,
Brian Stephens
(Spotfire)

[Fujiifilm]

Congrats on the new euph! I also had a York 3067 for a number of years and really enjoyed playing it!

[Pat]

If you have a bit of patience you may find a Besson New Standard in very good condition by watching this forum or Ebay. I got my New Standard by "trolling" the mentioned sites and it's a 70s vintage horn in very nice condition. I hope you get a chance to play your candidates before committing. Finding the sound that works for YOU is the most important part. Happy hunting!

[Shinn]

Here’s a Besson…

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...n#.Yg76OiROmEc

[Spotfire]

The York Prestige 3067 arrived yesterday from Heathrow to LAX in less than a week door to door courtesy of Trumpets4Cash on e-bay. I did have to pay an additional $161.00 in fees to get it through U.S. Customs. It was extremely well packed and is in perfect condition with no valve wear and all new valve springs, guides, felts, corks, and rubber spring dampers. The most important part is that I agree with the seller that it is a "cracker". It has the sound and resonance that I had pictured in my mind and plays very well. I can't put it down except to rest my sore chops. I am happy that I was able to get a like new German made Besson copy for half the price of a new one. I had no reservations with this purchase due to the information about the seller and the York Prestige I found on this forum. Thank YOU!

[John Morgan]

Congratulations on the new horn, Spotfire!!! It sure looks like a real jim-dandy!!

[davewerden]

Nice job landing that one! The Yorks are really nice instruments, and were considered a step up from the original Bessons on which their design was based. You probably know that David and Robert Childs performed on York, as did Gail Robertson. My former stand-mate, Danny Vinson, also played one and liked it better than his Sovereign. (He continued to play the York long after they folded, until a few years ago when he switched to Adams.)

[RickF]

Congrats on your new horn! It looks really great!