Shires Modular Receiver and Trigger Pictures

[stevevaughn]

Hey everyone,

I just received the Shires trigger kit and the modular receiver with some bits in the mail this weekend. Figured I would take some pictures pre-installation and share with you all here. I tried to get pictures to show how the modular receiver works and how my SM4U fits with different bits. You can see how the gap is different with each bit and how it looks from the opposite end of the receiver (can't get those angles post installation!)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xtecitpfr...xuC4RFpNa?dl=0

The pictures should have comments with some info regarding the receiver and which bits are with which mouthpiece.

I plan on having the trigger and the receiver installed on my Q40 this week and will follow up with post-installation pictures and thoughts!

[John Morgan]

Interesting! Is the trigger going to need to be soldered on or is this not required?

The modular receiver and different bits are also interesting. I wonder how much similarity that has to the Adams adjustable gap receiver?

[stevevaughn]

Yes the trigger has to be soldered on.

I think the receiver is quite a bit different from the Adams AGR. With the AGR I believe you are literally adjusting the gap, but I'm not sure how you know where the end of the mouthpiece is in relation to that in order to know how to adjust it. I have not tried one, ever, so this is just my best guess, but I imagine you try a setting, play some notes, and see what you think and adjust until you find the setting that feels right to you.

With the Shires receiver & bits configuration you can test different bits and see the exact gap you are going to have as the end of the bit will always go right up to the beginning of the mouthpipe. To me, this seems more manageable. I'd rather say "I like to use the #2.5 bit with XYZ mouthpiece because it has a XYZ gap" and know exactly what that gap is, rather than having to guess what the gap is on an AGR receiver, and have to remember exactly where that setting is. Although, assuming you don't change mouthpieces very often that isn't too big of a deal since you could probably just "set it and forget it" once you find the setting you like.

I'm sure Dave can chime in with his thoughts on the Adams AGR since he has 100% more experience with that setup than me! But I am excited to test out this receiver. The biggest reason I am having it put on is that the Denis Wick/Alliance mouthpieces do NOT work with the "out-of-the-box" Eastman/Shires receivers IMO. It goes in way too far and causes a lot of problems with intonation and response. Works great if you play a Bowman or a Schilke mouthpiece or any other "American" mouthpiece.

[miketeachesclass]

Seems shortsighted of Eastman/Shires to use an out of the box configuration that doesn't work well with one of the most popular mouthpiece lines for euphonium.

Do you know whether this is something they've addressed on the Solo/Custom line (and on future Q series horns)?

Yes the trigger has to be soldered on.

I think the receiver is quite a bit different from the Adams AGR. With the AGR I believe you are literally adjusting the gap, but I'm not sure how you know where the end of the mouthpiece is in relation to that in order to know how to adjust it. I have not tried one, ever, so this is just my best guess, but I imagine you try a setting, play some notes, and see what you think and adjust until you find the setting that feels right to you.

With the Shires receiver & bits configuration you can test different bits and see the exact gap you are going to have as the end of the bit will always go right up to the beginning of the mouthpipe. To me, this seems more manageable. I'd rather say "I like to use the #2.5 bit with XYZ mouthpiece because it has a XYZ gap" and know exactly what that gap is, rather than having to guess what the gap is on an AGR receiver, and have to remember exactly where that setting is. Although, assuming you don't change mouthpieces very often that isn't too big of a deal since you could probably just "set it and forget it" once you find the setting you like.

I'm sure Dave can chime in with his thoughts on the Adams AGR since he has 100% more experience with that setup than me! But I am excited to test out this receiver. The biggest reason I am having it put on is that the Denis Wick/Alliance mouthpieces do NOT work with the "out-of-the-box" Eastman/Shires receivers IMO. It goes in way too far and causes a lot of problems with intonation and response. Works great if you play a Bowman or a Schilke mouthpiece or any other "American" mouthpiece.

[stevevaughn]

Seems shortsighted of Eastman/Shires to use an out of the box configuration that doesn't work well with one of the most popular mouthpiece lines for euphonium.

Do you know whether this is something they've addressed on the Solo/Custom line (and on future Q series horns)?

The Solo/Custom line comes with the modular receiver pre-installed, so you can get the bits that work for whatever mouthpiece you want. Luckily, the same modular receiver is able to be retrofitted on my Q40S.

[MichaelSchott]

Yes the trigger has to be soldered on.

I think the receiver is quite a bit different from the Adams AGR. With the AGR I believe you are literally adjusting the gap, but I'm not sure how you know where the end of the mouthpiece is in relation to that in order to know how to adjust it. I have not tried one, ever, so this is just my best guess, but I imagine you try a setting, play some notes, and see what you think and adjust until you find the setting that feels right to you.

With the Shires receiver & bits configuration you can test different bits and see the exact gap you are going to have as the end of the bit will always go right up to the beginning of the mouthpipe. To me, this seems more manageable. I'd rather say "I like to use the #2.5 bit with XYZ mouthpiece because it has a XYZ gap" and know exactly what that gap is, rather than having to guess what the gap is on an AGR receiver, and have to remember exactly where that setting is. Although, assuming you don't change mouthpieces very often that isn't too big of a deal since you could probably just "set it and forget it" once you find the setting you like.

I'm sure Dave can chime in with his thoughts on the Adams AGR since he has 100% more experience with that setup than me! But I am excited to test out this receiver. The biggest reason I am having it put on is that the Denis Wick/Alliance mouthpieces do NOT work with the "out-of-the-box" Eastman/Shires receivers IMO. It goes in way too far and causes a lot of problems with intonation and response. Works great if you play a Bowman or a Schilke mouthpiece or any other "American" mouthpiece.

The question that comes to mind is do we need to know the exact gap? With the Shires you need to know which combination gives you the response you desire. The Adams is basically the same but it’s infinitely adjustable through its range of movement. The AGR makes this very easy.

[John Morgan]

The question that comes to mind is do we need to know the exact gap? With the Shires you need to know which combination gives you the response you desire. The Adams is basically the same but it’s infinitely adjustable through its range of movement. The AGR makes this very easy.

Michael - That is exactly what I was going to say before you said it for me. It is pretty easy to adjust on my Adams. I put in a mouthpiece, try it in various settings (turns of the receiver to get the gap I want), then leave it where I like the sound/response. It is rather easy to pair the particular mouthpiece with the number of turns needed or wanted to suit myself. Less hardware to deal with. With the Adams, you can also get your choice of stainless steel or nickel-silver and perhaps other types of material for the receiver. So, in the end it seems like you have more hardware and fewer choices on gaps with the Shires than an infinitely adjustable gap receiver like the Adams which doesn't require additional bits and pieces beyond the original receiver. I frankly don't care what the gap is, just that I can adjust it to one that works for me and then easily note the turns to get there with the mouthpiece I am using.

Are you able to use different size shanks with the Shires setup? Those bits reminded me of mouthpiece adapters.

[miketeachesclass]

Thanks Steve. It’s exciting that we will have a US maker producing a high end euphonium again. I think Kanstul made one before they closed but there isn’t another to my knowledge.

The Solo/Custom line comes with the modular receiver pre-installed, so you can get the bits that work for whatever mouthpiece you want. Luckily, the same modular receiver is able to be retrofitted on my Q40S.

[stevevaughn]

Michael - That is exactly what I was going to say before you said it for me. It is pretty easy to adjust on my Adams. I put in a mouthpiece, try it in various settings (turns of the receiver to get the gap I want), then leave it where I like the sound/response. It is rather easy to pair the particular mouthpiece with the number of turns needed or wanted to suit myself. Less hardware to deal with. With the Adams, you can also get your choice of stainless steel or nickel-silver and perhaps other types of material for the receiver. So, in the end it seems like you have more hardware and fewer choices on gaps with the Shires than an infinitely adjustable gap receiver like the Adams which doesn't require additional bits and pieces beyond the original receiver. I frankly don't care what the gap is, just that I can adjust it to one that works for me and then easily note the turns to get there with the mouthpiece I am using.

Are you able to use different size shanks with the Shires setup? Those bits reminded me of mouthpiece adapters.

Glad to hear that the Adams AGR is easy to use, and what you said makes sense. I think being an engineering-type person I like to know the details/measurements of what I'm doing, but I do appreciate the simplicity of the Adams AGR. I think if I had infinite control over the gap I would be getting too worked up over something like the difference between a quarter-turn or an eighth-turn, haha! The bits narrow down the choices for me which for me, makes my life simpler.

Yes, with the Shires setup you could get a medium shank bit to use a medium shank mouthpiece and be able to alternate between large/medium as desired. Not sure if that would make a Q41 play like a Q41M or not, but it's interesting that you could do that!

[John Morgan]

...I think if I had infinite control over the gap I would be getting too worked up over something like the difference between a quarter-turn or an eighth-turn, haha! The bits narrow down the choices for me which for me, makes my life simpler...

Now you have a point there, for sure!! When I first got my Adams almost 6 years ago, I didn't even mess with the AGR at first except to set it all in. Then after a short period to get used to the horn, I started the dosey-doe with the AGR by trying it in about a gazillion different settings. Then realized that a quarter turn probably had about no discernable effect, so I limited my changes to full turns (I think, been a while). I eventually settled on 2 or 3 full turns out for me. I haven't really messed with it much since then. Plus I am using the same mouthpiece I have ever used on this horn, the Warburton Demondrae model, which for me is the best mouthpiece I have had the pleasure to put my old lips on.

Actually, now that I am fully engaged in thinking about the AGR, I remember at first trying it all in, then trying it full out (or as out as I could get it without worrying about it falling off). I wanted to see what the extremes were. From there I believe I was able to make somewhat decent decisions on which way I wanted to go. Was fun until it wasn't. I also realized after a few years that I needed to grease the receiver if I ever wanted it to move again. Fortunately, I got to that in the nick of time.

[davewerden]

Here is a video I did recently about using the AGR on my Adams euphonium. I DO venture into the issue of how little is too little when you adjust it.

https://youtu.be/nnGCZHfSCAY

The caliper shows how fine the adjustments are.

[stevevaughn]

Here is a video I did recently about using the AGR on my Adams euphonium. I DO venture into the issue of how little is too little when you adjust it.

https://youtu.be/nnGCZHfSCAY

The caliper shows how fine the adjustments are.

Thanks for making that video, really helpful to see it in action! Not sure how one would do this, but it would be cool to see a "deconstructed" version of that to get an idea of how it looks on the inside. Wouldn't change how you use it, but just for fun!

My only question would be what happens when a mouthpiece goes in too far to start (essentially a negative gap) and the mouthpieces ends up going past the end of the receiver (this is the issue I have on the Shires euph, which is fixed by using bits that adjust the insertion depth).

Wouldn't unscrewing the AGR not be able fix the issue of having a negative gap to start? Also, not sure how negligible that space would be since you are able to unscrew the receiver enough to make sure the mouthpiece doesn't go into the mouthpipe.

[John Morgan]

Thanks for making that video, really helpful to see it in action! Not sure how one would do this, but it would be cool to see a "deconstructed" version of that to get an idea of how it looks on the inside. Wouldn't change how you use it, but just for fun!

My only question would be what happens when a mouthpiece goes in too far to start (essentially a negative gap) and the mouthpieces ends up going past the end of the receiver (this is the issue I have on the Shires euph, which is fixed by using bits that adjust the insertion depth).

Wouldn't unscrewing the AGR not be able fix the issue of having a negative gap to start? Also, not sure how negligible that space would be since you are able to unscrew the receiver enough to make sure the mouthpiece doesn't go into the mouthpipe.

Well, without drawing pictures, this I can say:

The receiver is just at two inches long. The lead pipe has external threads on it. The receiver on the inside of it has internal threads that screw onto the lead pipe. These internal threads extend into the receiver for about 1/2 to 3/4 inches. The rest of the inside of the receiver is smooth to accept the shank of the mouthpiece at the other end. When I put my Warburton Demondrae mouthpiece in, it goes in about one inch. Just eyeballing the space from the end of the shank (the furthest part of the shank in the receiver) to the start of the internal threads is maybe 1/4 - 1/3 of an inch. In this situation, if I screwed the receiver in as far as I could, the gap would be about 1/4 - 1/3 inch. Mind you these are all just ballpark estimates, in fact I actually don't have my Adams with me at the moment; I am simply using one of the Adams receivers I have along with the Warburton mouthpiece. I tried several mouthpieces to include a Wick 4AL, a Schilke, a K&G, a King 5G, and a BB piece. None of them touched the threaded part of the receiver.

My conclusions are that most any mouthpiece will go in the receiver without bottoming out. You can make the gap as small as 1/4 - 1/3 of an inch, and as large as in the neighborhood of 1 inch.

As to your question about a mouthpiece going past the end of the receiver: It would have to go in more than 1 and 1/4 to 1 and 1/2 inches to bottom out on the threads on the inside of the receiver. If the mouthpiece fits in the Adams receiver, then it won't bottom out in any of the screwed in or out positions.

[stevevaughn]

Well, without drawing pictures, this I can say:

The receiver is just at two inches long. The lead pipe has external threads on it. The receiver on the inside of it has internal threads that screw onto the lead pipe. These internal threads extend into the receiver for about 1/2 to 3/4 inches. The rest of the inside of the receiver is smooth to accept the shank of the mouthpiece at the other end. When I put my Warburton Demondrae mouthpiece in, it goes in about one inch. Just eyeballing the space from the end of the shank (the furthest part of the shank in the receiver) to the start of the internal threads is maybe 1/4 - 1/3 of an inch. In this situation, if I screwed the receiver in as far as I could, the gap would be about 1/4 - 1/3 inch. Mind you these are all just ballpark estimates, in fact I actually don't have my Adams with me at the moment; I am simply using one of the Adams receivers I have along with the Warburton mouthpiece. I tried several mouthpieces to include a Wick 4AL, a Schilke, a K&G, a King 5G, and a BB piece. None of them touched the threaded part of the receiver.

My conclusions are that most any mouthpiece will go in the receiver without bottoming out. You can make the gap as small as 1/4 - 1/3 of an inch, and as large as in the neighborhood of 1 inch.

As to your question about a mouthpiece going past the end of the receiver: It would have to go in more than 1 and 1/4 to 1 and 1/2 inches to bottom out on the threads on the inside of the receiver. If the mouthpiece fits in the Adams receiver, then it won't bottom out in any of the screwed in or out positions.

Good to know, sounds like the made the insertion depth of the mouthpiece fairly shallow to ensure that doesn't happen. My SM4U goes into the standard Shires receiver at 1.3" measured with calipers . With the bit that corrects the negative gap is goes in 1" measured (with the #2.5 bit for those curious, which gives no gap; the end of the mouthpiece goes right up to the end of the receiver).

[stevevaughn]

Just got my horn back from the shop. Pictures of the trigger and the receiver. All works just as expected, smooth as butter!