Baritone Buying Advice

[Mp4G]

Hi all,

I stumbled on this forum while researching baritone horns, so I thought I’d try to pick your brains to help me with my current situation.

I’ve been subbing with a local brass band in PA, and they’ve recently offered me a permanent position. I’m a euphonium player, but I have subbed with them on tenor horn and baritone horn, and always borrowed an instrument. I always played a Yamaha 301 when subbing on baritone. The horn was fine for me, but I really don’t like the lack of compensation or really anyway to easily help with low intonation.

While researching I’ve quickly gathered so far that everyone can agree the Yamaha Neo is pretty much the horn to buy… a little expensive though. I’m a play before I buy type, but that’s a difficult thing now since stock is spotty. I’d want to be able to compare other horns, too.

So, I have two questions.

What are the good, pro level horn I should be going out of my way to try? I don’t necessarily have a hard price limit as I’m willing to save for the right horn.

What are so good, “safe” options that I could look for as used horns to get now so I have something to bridge the gap while I am trying horns and maybe saving for purchase?

Thanks in advance for all the advice!

[miketeachesclass]

Welcome to the forum!

I wouldn't necessarily agree the neo is THE horn to buy - I believe it's a 3 valve horn, and you may want a 4th valve for some more difficult works.

I'm also primarily a euphonium player.

I have owned a york preference, and two besson prestige baritones, and I have played a colleague's Besson 956. I've also played a couple yamaha baritones, including the 4V non-comp.

Of those horns, the 956 played best. Obviously it's different from horn to horn. The two prestige baritones I own play differently from one another and they're both more recent german horns.

There is a besson 956 available in the for sale section of this site, which may be a good choice for you.

If you're looking for "safe" options, the Besson 956 if on the used market, and the prestige on the new market are safe choices in my opinion. I did not like the yamaha baritones I've played.

All of that said, it's important that your approach to the horn differs from your approach to the euphonium. That was maybe the most difficult thing for me to grasp early on. Acting as the true bridge between the low and mid brass carries with it a tonal color that's going to be brighter than you think you should be if you come form euph.

All my opinion, obviously. YMMV.

Hi all,

I stumbled on this forum while researching baritone horns, so I thought I’d try to pick your brains to help me with my current situation.

I’ve been subbing with a local brass band in PA, and they’ve recently offered me a permanent position. I’m a euphonium player, but I have subbed with them on tenor horn and baritone horn, and always borrowed an instrument. I always played a Yamaha 301 when subbing on baritone. The horn was fine for me, but I really don’t like the lack of compensation or really anyway to easily help with low intonation.

While researching I’ve quickly gathered so far that everyone can agree the Yamaha Neo is pretty much the horn to buy… a little expensive though. I’m a play before I buy type, but that’s a difficult thing now since stock is spotty. I’d want to be able to compare other horns, too.

So, I have two questions.

What are the good, pro level horn I should be going out of my way to try? I don’t necessarily have a hard price limit as I’m willing to save for the right horn.

What are so good, “safe” options that I could look for as used horns to get now so I have something to bridge the gap while I am trying horns and maybe saving for purchase?

Thanks in advance for all the advice!

[Shinn]

Here is a link to the Besson 956 Mike referenced above.

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...e#.YdhzWBZOmEc

[daruby]

To all,

I am NOT a fan of most 4 valve baritones. In the brass band context, you just won't use the 4th valve for range and using it for intonation or alternate fingerings is of marginal value given the other issues. Keep in mind that the 4 valve 956 or York 3056 are NOT fully compensating horns. They are based on using the 3 valve horn's valve block with minor modifications. The 1st and 2nd valves are the same as a 3 valver and the 3rd valve is adapted from a 1st valve. Thus, the compensating loops are all too small to compensate for a full F attachment (4th valve). Plus you get no compensation for 1-3, 2-3, or 1-2-3 combinations. The downside to ALL 4 valve baritones including the Besson 2056 Prestige and the Wessex 4 valve (which are both full 4 valve compensating horns) is ergonomics. They are much heavier. Due to the small space required to cram all of the extra tubing, the horns are expanded front to back. This makes the left hand grip VERY wide (more than even the older Besson euphoniums). The horns based on the 956 have an evil double loop in the 4th valve wrap that is a pain to empty.

A good pro 3 valve baritone like the NEO, Besson 955, York 3055, or a Sterling like mine is easier to hold, plays well in tune with judicious use of alternate fingerings, and is MUCH easier to deal with. Your arms and fingers will not get as tired holding it up in a good playing position. I am a fan of my Sterling Virtuoso heavy bell baritone. It is a 3 valve with an extra thick and heavy bell. This helps to keep the horn from braking up at high dynamic levels. A common problem for euphonium players is using "euphonium air" when playing baritone. It becomes very easy to over blow. I just don't have this problem with my Sterling. However this horn is not generally available in the US. Overall, for use here in the US, my recommendation would be the NEO. I find them incredibly responsive and they have generally decent intonation.

Doug

[miketeachesclass]

Points taken, though I don't personally agree - I prefer a 4 valve instrument to a 3 valve. Both from the standpoint of available alternates, and for 4th valve usage in difficult lit.

Mike

To all,

I am NOT a fan of most 4 valve baritones. In the brass band context, you just won't use the 4th valve for range and using it for intonation or alternate fingerings is of marginal value given the other issues. Keep in mind that the 4 valve 956 or York 3056 are NOT fully compensating horns. They are based on using the 3 valve horn's valve block with minor modifications. The 1st and 2nd valves are the same as a 3 valver and the 3rd valve is adapted from a 1st valve. Thus, the compensating loops are all too small to compensate for a full F attachment (4th valve). Plus you get no compensation for 1-3, 2-3, or 1-2-3 combinations. The downside to ALL 4 valve baritones including the Besson 2056 Prestige and the Wessex 4 valve (which are both full 4 valve compensating horns) is ergonomics. They are much heavier. Due to the small space required to cram all of the extra tubing, the horns are expanded front to back. This makes the left hand grip VERY wide (more than even the older Besson euphoniums). The horns based on the 956 have an evil double loop in the 4th valve wrap that is a pain to empty.

A good pro 3 valve baritone like the NEO, Besson 955, York 3055, or a Sterling like mine is easier to hold, plays well in tune with judicious use of alternate fingerings, and is MUCH easier to deal with. Your arms and fingers will not get as tired holding it up in a good playing position. I am a fan of my Sterling Virtuoso heavy bell baritone. It is a 3 valve with an extra thick and heavy bell. This helps to keep the horn from braking up at high dynamic levels. A common problem for euphonium players is using "euphonium air" when playing baritone. It becomes very easy to over blow. I just don't have this problem with my Sterling. However this horn is not generally available in the US. Overall, for use here in the US, my recommendation would be the NEO. I find them incredibly responsive and they have generally decent intonation.

Doug

[spkissane]

I recently came into possession of a Besson new standard 3-valve compensating baritone (for free???), and though I don't really have much of a use for it at the moment, it's a really fun little instrument to play! Haven't really checked the pitch tendencies on it, but I assume it's probably in line with most Besson horns from that era. Serial puts it somewhere around 1967-70 I think, from the databases I've seen. Those might be worth looking out for as well.

I do think unless you're playing 2nd baritone in a brass band, a 3-valve horn will probably do what you need it to do while being less expensive.

[bbocaner]

I hate the 956 and the york 3056 that was made with the 956 tooling. Ergonomic mess, weird little loop in the 4th valve tuning slide that's a huge pain to mess with, abysmal intonation, and they just don't project. The 2056 is better but the intonation is very bad on it as well. The 4th valve is extremely useful for solo repertoire, especially if you're borrowing from euphonium/cello/bassoon repertoire since there isn't much available specifically for baritone. I only know of one band test piece that "requires" it and you could easily just fake or leave out those notes and nobody would notice. As far as technique, it's easier for us euphonium players to use 4 valves since that's what we're used to but the cornet players manage to play some very technical stuff with only 3 valves so we should be able to as well.

I really like the Neo, and the new 955s are good too. The Sterling (not the JP-Sterling) is extremely good as well.

[John Morgan]

From a what does maybe the best or certainly one of the best baritone players play perspective, namely Katrina Marzella, she plays a 3 valve, compensating, Yamaha Neo.

[djwpe]

I have a neo and a 955 sovereign. The sound is very similar, but the Neo is more resonant and has better intonation. I bought mine sight unseen, and it’s great.

[superted]

I have a 956 - agree with the comment that it's a design mess in general.

If I was to play more baritone I would spend some money to trade it for a newer 955 or Neo.

The Prestige baritone is a super instrument but it's closer to the euphonium than what I want from a baritone.

Regards,
ted

[franz]

The Sterling (not the JP-Sterling) is extremely good as well.

I play on a JP Sterling 373 and rate it as excellent. It is true, however, that to make it playable I had to cut the tube legs of all the pistons ducts including the main one. The JP 273 is a cheaper version and could be an option, but it may need an intervention like the one I did, easily done even with the DIY.

[Sara Hood]

Just wanted to check something with you Mp4G. When you say you are looking for a "baritone", do you mean that you are looking for a British style baritone, or an American style one? The American style are sometimes seen as a hybrid between a British style and a euphonium. When you say "brass band" I can't quite tell if you are looking for a specialized horn or not.

If you are looking for the British style, Jin Bao makes an affordable, compensated, 3 valve (top); the JinBao JBBR1240. It is what I play. It blends in just fine with the Bessons and Yamahas in my group. It is the platform that Wessex and Schiller have customized their horns from. Yes it is a stencil, but why pay more for a big name to be engraved on the bell? JinBao did pick on some of the better names to clone their product from. If I remember right, JinBao also has some four valve baritones if you are sold on needing the fourth valve.

My suggestion is to stick with a three valve compensator. If ever you actually need the fouth valve, you can ask your music director if they would rather have you play that particular part on the euphonium. Feel free to work with a used instrument unless your professional pride is what is driving the desire for a new one. If you have a thing about owning only new and top of the line, then by all means, scratch that itch. Since you are not the principle for this organization, there is no shame in being practical/pragmatic about which horn you acquire.

If you and I were on the same coast (you in PA and me in CA), I would offer to let you test drive mine. So let me know if by some chance you are coming out my way. Otherwise, happy horn hunt. Be sure to show off whatever you end up getting here in the forum (smile).

- Sara

[sctroy]

It's my Besson in the classifieds. I went to Dillon's fully intending to buy the three valve compensating version, but the 4v was a significantly better instrument. Maybe the 3v Besson was a dog or the 4v was a particularly good one - I don't know. It also turned out the 4v felt very similar to my Besson euph, which was a plus for me.

Steve Troy

[spkissane]

The way this thread has turned has made me think a "brass band" thread somewhere in the forum where we can talk about which bands we all play with, share performances, and generally nerd out on brass banding is a really fun idea.

[Magikarp]

The Neo seems to be comfortably better than the “classic” Besson Sovereign design which are riddled with intonation issues. The four valve versions are appalling - stuffy, horrendous intonation and seemingly semi-efficient divining rods - locating sources of gallons of water that can never actually be found.

Any instrument that has a flat 2nd harmonic should be cast in the fires of Mount Doom.

Interesting Yamaha used to make a cracking four valve non-compensating baridrone.