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Thread: Looking for doubling advice

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
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    Tucson, where tacos are real.
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    Looking for doubling advice

    I have been playing euphonium for close to three years now, and prior to that I played BBb tuba for about fifty years. But prior to that, I played cornet for about three. So, I play euphonium in bass clef, but I can do it in treble. I just don't like doing it in treble. I like to know that the note I'm playing is the note I'm seeing.

    That said, I recently got an Eb tuba, and really enjoy it. I have not played contrabass tuba on a regular basis since starting euphonium, so I'm not concerned about trying to hang on to BBb fingering. But with so much range overlap, keeping the Eb tuba and euphonium fingerings separate is a challenge. My tuba is an antique, 3 valve, top-action, small instrument just slightly larger than my euphonium, so there is not a dramatic, tactile change that triggers a corresponding mental shift.

    So here is my question: does it get easier to keep the fingerings clear in one's mind, or should I just drop my moody preferences and embrace treble euphonium? I would be interested to know what the experience of others has been.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
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    If you can read euphonium in both bass clef and treble clef, then the Eb tuba is relatively easy. If you have an Eb tuba and want to read tuba music (which is mostly all written in bass clef concert pitch), then read the bass clef as if it were treble clef and add three sharps (or take away 3 flats). I have both several euphoniums and an Eb tuba, and this is just what I do. Now if I had a BBb tuba, I would just handle it like my euphonium in bass clef. For brass band music, the tubas (BBb and Eb) are written in treble clef and already transposed, so that is pretty easy and no new fingerings to learn.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  3. My history is all treble clef. I started on trumpet, then took up french horn and then euphonium. For double horn, one must learn to play in F and two sets of fingering for the Bb and F sides. I've found that staying with the same clef makes it all easier. Further, that advice of read it this way and add sharps or flats never worked for me. Each instrument has a different part of my brain. Oh, I forgot Eb soprano cornet. That's another one. I would say just learn the instruments. No shortcuts. Buckle down and spend a bunch of time on the new horn. After a while, when you switch, it happens automatically.
    Richard


    King 1130 Flugabone
    King 2280 Euphonium
    King 10J Tuba
    Conn 22B Trumpet

  4. I'm an amateur trombonist (former pro) who doubles on euph and sometimes tuba. I read bass, tenor, alto and treble clef (non-transposing - transposing treble is just tenor - 2 flats). Clefs and transposing tricks are a big advantage, so you can play just about any part. When I picked up tuba, at first I got an Eb, but the fingerings messed me up, so I got a 3/4 BBb, and that sorted that out. There are two things that mess me up. One is getting treble sometimes confused with tenor or alto, since treble is note-name-wise, right in between. The other is sometimes getting messed up on partial or octave on the tuba. But the advantage is that I can read any clef on any instrument - even alto clef on tuba. The problem comes in sorting out the octaves. Do you be true to the printed music or the instrument?

    To me the secret to keeping it all going is to spend time in your doubling areas, practice all the clefs you're going to use, and if you can, make them as distinct as possible from one another. For example, tenor and bass clef are far enough from one another that I don't get them confused. But alto and treble are separated by just a step, well, a step and an octave, and its very easy to slip from one into the other. Since I don't use alto much, when I do use it, I have a tendency to slip into non-transposing treble. Treble can very easily slip either into tenor or alto, depending on which I've been reading recently. Tenor clef is instinctive for me on trombone, but for valves, I try to keep to bass clef and non-transposing treble. Euph and Eb should be using distinctly different mouthpieces, which can be what helps you associate which set of fingerings you play.

    It took me several months of sparse practice to be reasonably proficient on Eb. Maybe you can start on bari sax music (read as bass clef) and gradually graduate to non-transposed notation. Eb was hard for me. I kept thinking F would have been easier for a trombone player, but I haven't tested that theory yet. Like taping down the F attachment lever and trying to play that way...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
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    Thanks to all for your advice. I appreciate hearing your experiences.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    I've been in a similar position to yours: Started on the Eb tuba at the age of about 40, played it (Yamaha 321) for several years, switched to BBb (Cerveny 781), played that for more years, then decided that what I REALLY liked was an Eb and got a compensating Eb from Wessex. But I also have an old 1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb that I've finally beaten/threatened/begged/cajoled/modified into a fun little horn that actually plays in tune at A=440. In the interim, I picked up euphonium (which I play only slightly better that acceptably, and not frequently) and then went whole hog on bass trombone for the past 5 years or so, with infrequent work on the tuba(s).

    In terms of switching back and forth among the Bb and Eb instruments/fingerings, I've never really had any problem -- though I confess this came as something of a surprise. But I think my response to your original question is that it will probably get better -- especially if you don't think about it much and just play. There's always a few minutes of thinking about it when I switch from one to the other, but that passes pretty rapidly. However, I've always felt that there was a different "feel" to each instrument that worked as a kind of mental switch for me. But I'm not sure how important that is.

    Changing from the tubas to trombone was a real jump and took some time -- in part because of the significant difference in timbre, tone quality, and feel. And the bass trombone exacerbates this because it's fundamentally four different instruments you're playing at one time. The switch to slide rather than valves was challenging enough, but the very different "feedback" from the instrument (in terms of both tactile response and sound) took a lot of time (probably a couple of years) to grapple and feel some comfort and confidence with.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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