JP274 vs King 2280

[Blake]

I'm about to graduate high school and have been looking into horns so that I can continue playing but I'm having trouble finding one, I was wondering if the King 2280 or the JP274 would be a better choice, I've also been looking for used horns but haven't been able to find any in that price range.

[Richard III]

Depends on your sound concept and whether you demand a compensating horn. I found the JP not a good match for me. I didn't like it's sound. Many here do. I now have the 2280 and am very happy. Intonation is great and it blends fine with a compensating horn. Four in line valves are not a problem for me. I use a Alliance DC4 mouthpiece which also has been working great. I have a jazz gig this weekend that I'll use a Blessing 6 1/2AL mouthpiece to give a bit lighter sound.

[guidocorona]

Hello Blacke, and welcome to DWerden!

JP 274 and King 2280 are quite different from each other.... 2280 is a non-compensating euphonium, while 274 is a compensating euphonium manufactured in China. Having said this, my friend and DWerden-member Richard III has recently adopted the 2280 over the JP 274, because of 2280's tone and for its free blowing characteristics. .
It might be worth mentioning that on a non-compensating horn like 2280 it might be a little bit more work to play in tune down into the pedal region.

Meantime, may I ask

* What euphonium you played during HS,
* What your budget might be,
* In what context/situation you will be using your euphonium? E.g. College music major.... Amateur brass band... etc...
* which tone and playing characteristics are most important to you in a euphonium?

Depending on your budget and preferences, there might or might not be further choices.

Regards, Guido

[Blake]

I was looking at the King 2280 because that's what I've been using in HS, my budget it around 2-3k, I'll be using my euphonium in college and in a band that I currently play in outside of school. I would like a nice open sound, I prefer it to be on the brighter side.

[ann reid]

Try a Willson 2704 if you can find one. They’re not the same as the 2280, but I notice that they’re well within your price range when they come up for sale.

[spkissane]

Any reason the Yamaha 321 is out of the question?

[Blake]

It's not out of the question I've just been looking at horns and those are the 2 that come up the most.

[Blake]

Would you recommend that horn over the 2280?

[guidocorona]

Hello Blake, as you are keen on a tonal color on the brilliant side, and if you were considering a new compensating euphonium, it is worth looking at the Wessex Sinfonico. It retails for $3250 USD in silver plate, for January 2022 delivery from Wessex-tubas.

https://us.wessex-tubas.com/collecti...nfonico-ep600h

This is a hand-made horn made from sheet metal. Sinfonico has been reviewed favorably by several experienced members of this board, who have posted their observations as well as excellent media clips.

Amongst them, David Werdens notes and side-by-side comparison with his own Adams E3 showcase the remarkable tonal/playing character of the mid-priced Sinfonico.

Below are a couple of links and sample clips, but you will find even more by searching DWerden.com

Dave's Sinfonico review on Dave's own blog:
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.p...nico-Euphonium

David's comparison of Sinfonico and Adams E3 with silver bell - Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_KkoQajSZ0

David Werden -- Sinfonico Overview and Features on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjd8xRghBO8

John Morgan's comparison clip of Sinfonico vs Adams E3 with silver bell - Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNH2RWrQK7c

A few discussion threads on Sinfonico:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...res-and-Videos

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...onico-Part-One

If you Blake attend the MidWest clinic, you should be able to playtest Sinfonico at Booth 432:
https://s15.a2zinc.net/clients/midwe...BoothID=112260

The MidWest Clinic takes place from Dec 15th to 18th in Chicago:
https://www.midwestclinic.org/

Wessex has a liberal purchase return policy. Here is what the Wessex-tubas.com site says:

"Wessex Tubas offers a 3-year warranty against manufacturing defects on all our instruments, and in the unlikely event that you are dissatisfied with your purchase, we offer a full refund and return within 2 weeks.
You can return any item bought from Wessex Tubas within 14 days of receiving it for a full refund, minus shipping costs. However, please contact us before returning your item so we can provide you with return labels and a collection booking with our dedicated courier to ensure the safe return of your item/s."

Hope this helps, Guido

PS. In case you were wondering, I have no financial interest in Wessex-tubas.

[Blake]

Thank you for your reply, the Sifonico seems like a great horn, I won't be able to attend the MidWest clinic to try it however so I can't really say, do you think this horn would outperform the 2280?

Thanks,
Blake

[tokuno]

Thank you for your reply, the Sifonico seems like a great horn, I won't be able to attend the MidWest clinic to try it however so I can't really say, do you think this horn would outperform the 2280?

Thanks,
Blake

I'd opine that it depends upon what you mean by "outperform".
I turned down a musical scholarship out of high school (back then the Yamaha 321 was what everyone played in state honor band), and I played the 321 until "moving up" to a spankin' new Besson Sovereign 967 right out of high school (and also had experience on the King 2280), but university rigor (engineering/architecture studies) meant that I played (very) casually in college - marching band and (undemanding) Spring Symphonic Band - then hung it up for twenty years - career, marriage, mortgage, kids.
Coming back was frustrating - my brain expected results that wouldn't happen - and the big, compensating horn played like a truck due to my layoff. I sold it and picked up a Yamaha 321s, because it is a nimble, flexible, forgiving horn. I.e. for me in that circumstance, it WAY outperformed the compensating horn, and gave me the "pick up and play" capability that my limited practice availability demanded. The Besson would've required far more dedication & time than I had available to bring me the same playing comfort that the 321 provided with far less effort.
What did I give up by playing the 321? Timbre - I loved the Sovereign's sound. Volume - the small-shank 321 has a lower volume ceiling (less of an issue of course with the 2280). Compensation - but none of the community band literature dropped far enough below the staff to matter. Prestige? - nah - no one outside the euphonium section knows or cares whether someone's playing a "professional, expensive, compensating" horn, and everyone in the section stops caring about cosmetics as soon as the playing starts. 4-across vs. 3+1 - a little time to re-familiarize renders that moot, and, frankly, 4-across is handier for page-flipping without interruption. Intonation - every horn has its quirks, and the 321 is workable.
On the "bennies" side, used 321s are cheap, reliable, very consistent as long as the valves are good & the tubing's relatively clean, fully-depreciated, easy to flip when you're ready to move on, light-weight, and sufficient to most any casual need.
The 2280 is a little less common in my area, and probably a bit harder to flip, but imo is a better-sounding horn than the 321. For my purposes, though, those two are 6-of-1, 1/2-dozen-of-the-other options.
I always considered the 321 to be a short-term "re-entry", so I bought used and after playing myself back into shape and wanting a different experience, flipped it at no loss, then flipped a bunch of compensators in search of my ideal sound and playing experience.

This all to advise: you're familiar with the 2280 - if you can find one on the used market, it's a known-quantity, more-than-enough horn to keep you playing affordably, and if you eventually find it's insufficient to your needs, you can embark upon a horn safari all while still having the way-more-than-just-adequate King to keep playing on while you test-drive other horns.
If you can't find a 2280 inexpensively, throw a stick: there's a bazillion used Yamaha YEP 321 & 321s on the market, and with a bit of effort, you'll find an inexpensive one in decent playing shape.
Spend the savings on Arbans, Gillis, Rochut, Kopprasch, et al., and a decent tuner/metronome app (I like Total Energy Tuner), and practice & play the heck out of the horn!
Also, google the rule of 72, and invest into target retirement funds what you would've spent on a more expensive horn. You'll thank me in 45 years.

[ann reid]

I’m in the same thought mode as tokuno. I’m now alternating between two nice horns, one a Willson 2704 and the other a heavily revised Wessex Festivo that I bought 2nd hand.

IMO it is REALLY IMPORTANT to TRY BEFORE YOU BUY.

Although it has taken me two years to do it, I now have two really functional horns to alternate between and my out-of-pocket has been pretty reasonable. I’ve also had excellent instruction, experience in the top level training materials previously mentioned, and both ensemble experience and training on one of the well known concertos.

For me, the hand position of the King was not workable BUT the 4 across of the Willson is just about perfect. SO, individual differences between brands and models can be significant.

Your excitement is contagious, but temper it with a few experiences. My local music store was very cooperative with allowing me to try instruments before my successful choices emerged.

[hyperbolica]

You've asked a very subjective question. It hits on a lot of trigger topics for euph players and the answer depends a lot on a number of things - how you feel about compensating systems, low notes, intonation, if American made is important to you, Ergonomics...

I'm a trombone player, but I have 3 euphoniums. Wessex Festivo, Conn 24i, and King 2280. I like the 2280 for a number of reasons.

1) A compensating system doesn't really do anything for you until you start playing below the staff.
2) The 2280 has a more lively sound than its compensating competitors.
3) 2280 has tuning options due to the trigger and the very long 4th valve slide
4) its American made
5) it has been around forever and is currently in production, so there are a lot of spare parts available
6) since it has been around a long time, you can probably get one used and cheap or brand new if you wish
7) the 4th valve on the far side of the instrument is an ergonomic nightmare for people with shoulder problems, so 4 valves in a row is better. Better yet would be 4 valves in front, like the Wessex Festivo.

On the down side,
1) I prefer the Wessex Festivo from an ergonomic point of view, but being in high school, you probably don't care about that
2) There are a lot of people who are prejudiced against the 2280 because of 1) 2) and 4) above.

2280 is kind of polarizing, but I prefer the way it sounds and responds. It's a little lighter, and to me resonates better. You can feel it when you play. There's a better quality to the sound - slightly "less dark" and overall more lively than the compensated Asian imports.

If you really want an opinion on this horn, read this article from Steve Ferguson of Horn Guys https://www.hornguys.com/products/ki...oist-euphonium
Yes, he's trying to sell them, but he sells other stuff as well. Steve is a real musician and very knowledgeable about stuff. He points out different ways you can use the 4th valve tuning options to set up the horn for how you use the low register, and how you like to tune notes below the staff.

I used to have a Wessex Dolce, which is very similar to the JP horn you mention. It was ok, but not remarkable in any way. I like the Festivo mainly because it is comfortable to hold. If I could get a 2280 with front valves like the Festivo, that would be a perfect euph to me. That's kind of what the 24i is, but that is a smaller bore and bell front, and other triggers that euph purists tend to pooh-pooh.

Since you're already comfortable with the 2280, that's probably a great pick. The only advantage of the JP is the compensating system, and frankly, compensating systems are overrated. It only engages when you use the 4th valve, and it only compensates for the 4th valve, it doesn't compensate for combinations of the first 3 valves. As a trombone player, the mechanism on the 2280 is a more reliable tuning option than a compensating system. Tuning on euphonium is often a compromise between tuning and centered sound quality, unless you use a slide. There is no such thing as push-button tuning.

[spkissane]

We all know what opinions are akin to, so I'll throw mine in here.

I grew up on a 2280. It was my "first" horn and the one I played on through high school until I got my first compensating horn (a Willson 2950). Even though I've never *owned* a 321, I now prefer the Yamaha 321 over the King 2280 for a few reasons:

1) Ubiquity. There may be no euphonium more common than the Yamaha 321. This is beneficial for a few reasons: Parts/repair are EXTREMELY easy to handle through pretty much any shop/dealer. It also means you're more likely to find a used one at a good price.

2) Consistency. Something Yamaha is really known for is producing a very consistent product from instrument to instrument, which makes buying before trying a lot safer bet. Yes, the King is "American made," but in all honesty the instruments I'm seeing come out of the Conn-Selmer factory are concerningly inconsistent - and that includes high-end pro instruments. I'm talking basic QC issues right out of the box (won't go into heavy detail here though). If you buy a used one that someone can vouch for, it's not as big of an issue, but I'd be careful if you're wanting to purchase new.

3)Ergonomics. The 2280 has all four valves on the same horizontal plane, whereas the 321's 4th valve is a bit more "offset," which I find more comfortable for the pinky. I also prefer the 4th valve slide wrap on the 321. The way the 2280's slide juts out on the side has always made me nervous.

Again, IN MY OPINION, you can't really beat the Yamaha 321 if you're shopping for a great quality non-compensating euphonium. It's pretty commonly the choice of pro doublers as well as jazz players. You can certainly achieve that brighter sound you want with it.

As you can tell from this thread, there are a ton of great options, and I think you'd be satisfied with most of the recommendations people here are giving you!

[Shawn]

I’m in the same thought mode as tokuno. I’m now alternating between two nice horns, one a Willson 2704 and the other a heavily revised Wessex Festivo that I bought 2nd hand.

IMO it is REALLY IMPORTANT to TRY BEFORE YOU BUY.

[...]

.

Couldn't agree more. Lots of people on this forum like the Wessex. The one I got sight unseen was an absolute dog.