Wessex French C Tuba TC 236 P

[ghmerrill]

I have a Thibouville-Lamy 4v Saxhorn in C/Bb, made in ca 1905.

Just as a matter of curiosity, what is it pitched to (that is, A= ???)?

[Snake Charmer]

With a Kelly 51D mouthpiece I play it with A=438-440. It is OK to play with others, but not in my A=443 village band.

[franz]

But isn't the intonation of the horn with the Bb extension pretty dreadful?

No, on my French tuba the pitch with the Bb extension is absolutely consistent. The fact remains that the partial 5th sounds a bit flat, but this is easily remedied with lip correction or alternatives positions.

[ghmerrill]

Interesting. I wonder if that's because the proportion of the cylindrical tubing to conical tubing in that horn is relatively high compared to most tubas. Acoustics (especially of conical tubes) is a bizarrely complex science.

[Snake Charmer]

The effects of putting in cylindrical pieces of tubing into an instrument should be manageable. Otherwise every horn would bring you into trouble when pressing a valve.
More effect has the number of used valves and the following more curves and bends = more resistance!
(For that I love the 2 tone 3rd valve!) This is the reason why the French C Tuba is much more consistent in sound in the low register than a compensated horn. If properly played you can not hear a sound difference between Db (4+6) and a CC (0). Try this with BB and BBb on a compensator...

[ghmerrill]

The effects of putting in cylindrical pieces of tubing into an instrument should be manageable.

I don't get what you mean by this.

Otherwise every horn would bring you into trouble when pressing a valve.

You mean "pressing a single valve"? Every horn does bring you into trouble with any valve combination, just as a matter of physics and the "valve swindle".

More effect has the number of used valves and the following more curves and bends = more resistance!
(For that I love the 2 tone 3rd valve!) This is the reason why the French C Tuba is much more consistent in sound in the low register than a compensated horn.

This makes sense. The compensated instrument is still a "compromise". But that compromise can be avoided by adding more valves -- essentially adding more "instruments", each of which is (hopefully) in tune with itself. It does seem to be generally true that the more valves or keys, the more one can achieve (or approximate) correct intonation. Thus it is almost possible to play a saxophone in tune. ( <= Saxophone joke)

If properly played you can not hear a sound difference between Db (4+6) and a CC (0). Try this with BB and BBb on a compensator...

I'm lost here. If "properly played", there is no difference in pitch between a Db and a C?

[John Morgan]

...I'm lost here. If "properly played", there is no difference in pitch between a Db and a C?

I think what Snake Charmer meant was when you play a compensating horn and go from a note using the compensating loops to a note down a half step that might be open or no compensating valves, you go from a somewhat stuffier note to a more free blowing note. So the difference is in the sound/timbre of the notes, not the pitch (which is different). Same phenomenon on the trombone with F attachment. Using the F attachment down low, the horn tends to get stuffier. Simply a result of more tubing and bends when you add the F plumbing.

On a euphonium, go from using 2-4 for the low B natural (bass clef) to the open Bb, and on most horns, the B natural is just not quite the same sound/timbre as the Bb.

[Snake Charmer]

...you go from a somewhat stuffier note to a more free blowing note. So the difference is in the sound/timbre of the notes, not the pitch (which is different).

This is exactly what I wanted to say. On compensated horns it is impossible not to sound stuffy low down, but even on non-compensators you can hear the played register by sound.
Best example: Chuck Daellenbach at the going dow last notes of the Tuba Tiger Rag. Broad loud solo notes on 5v CC-Tuba:
F (one octave under the staff, 4+5) solid sound,
Eb (3+4+5) stuffy,
D (1+3+4+5) VERY stuffy
C (open) Booah! full sound!
Bb (1) see C!

[ghmerrill]

Yeah. Thanks, John -- I missed that.

I agree in general with this. For the most part, I prefer non-comp horns. But I have to say that I haven't had a better horn in terms of intonation than the Wessex Eb. On the other hand, what I'm playing now (in the privacy of my own home) is the old 1924 3-valver since I replaced the receiver. The Wessex is great in terms of tone, and intonation, and ease of play. But the Buescher (which on its best day was never a great tuba) is just more "alive".

[franz]

Update: The horn sounding flat issue was addressed by shortening the main tune slide and thinning the mouthpiece schank so that it fits deeper into the receiver. In this way, in addition to putting the intonation back in place (A = 442), I reduced the GAP by 11.5 mm, bringing it to the size of 3.2 mm which, for me and on this horn (after various experiments ) turns out to be the optimal distance. If I remember correctly Dave too, in the video explaining the AGR adjustment on his Adams he had come to a similar measure of GAP adjustment.
Now I have to practice on the notes under the staff that are not yet obtainable automatically (I still have to memorize the various combinations with the 3 pistons operated by the left hand): I certainly don't lack time, having recovered from a serious injury (rupture of the tendon of the left leg quadriceps) which prevents me from walking. Between plaster and rehabilitation I will have it for at least 5/6 months.
Greetings to everyone.
Franz

[John Morgan]

Update: The horn sounding flat issue was addressed by shortening the main tune slide and thinning the mouthpiece schank so that it fits deeper into the receiver. In this way, in addition to putting the intonation back in place (A = 442), I reduced the GAP by 11.5 mm, bringing it to the size of 3.2 mm which, for me and on this horn (after various experiments ) turns out to be the optimal distance. If I remember correctly Dave too, in the video explaining the AGR adjustment on his Adams he had come to a similar measure of GAP adjustment.
Now I have to practice on the notes under the staff that are not yet obtainable automatically (I still have to memorize the various combinations with the 3 pistons operated by the left hand): I certainly don't lack time, having recovered from a serious injury (rupture of the tendon of the left leg quadriceps) which prevents me from walking. Between plaster and rehabilitation I will have it for at least 5/6 months.
Greetings to everyone.
Franz

Sorry to hear about your injury, Franz. Hope you are better soon or at least the road to recovery is not too difficult.

[franz]

With 3rd valve two tones you can reach a proper AA and you need for D only 36. And it is not difficult to get used to the fingering, I play all my C and Bb horns with long 3rd, only the Eb tuba and Eb alto I use with short 3rd. Half of my instruments have a long 3rd, so it was easier to pull the others out than changing everytime the fingering. And the sound for 23 with only one valve is better!
Saluti, Helmut

I extracted the 3th slide in order to get an Ab-Eb pitch like the original: with this configuration some notes sound better and you can use 2-3 for a pitched D (6th partial, with 1 partial 5th it sounds a little low) , and it was less difficult than I thought to get used to the new position, just a bit cumbersome the passage A-Ab.

[Snake Charmer]

just a bit cumbersome the passage A-Ab.

Quick changes E-Eb and A-Ab are comfortable with 12-125!

[franz]

Quick changes E-Eb and A-Ab are comfortable with 12-125!

Thanks, I hadn't thought about it!

[MikeS]

I wonder if anyone has tried to use one of these for the tuba part in a brass quintet and, if so, how much more work it would be than using a regular bass or contrabass tuba.