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Thread: Wessex French C Tuba TC 236 P

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
    Posts
    300
    I must be a bit stupid or just a little careless: only now I have seen that the slide of the 5th piston can be adjusted to a flat tone or half flat tone. In fact I couldn't figure out the correct positions for the low notes. Shake Charmer, can you please indicate the positions to obtain the notes below the staff with the 5th slide set to a flat half tone and the 3rd to a tone and a half?

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    Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone,4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves 1974, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  2. Hi Franz,
    with this configuration (=doigtee ancien) you can finger down from c to BBb:
    c=0 B=2 Bb=1 A=12 Ab=23 G=4 Gb=45 F=6 E=56 Eb=126 (or 256, you have to try)D=236 Db=46 C=0 (or 146!) BB=2346 BBb=12346. With 123456 you will obtain a too sharp AA.
    You will need a lot of air!

    With 3rd valve two tones you can reach a proper AA and you need for D only 36. And it is not difficult to get used to the fingering, I play all my C and Bb horns with long 3rd, only the Eb tuba and Eb alto I use with short 3rd. Half of my instruments have a long 3rd, so it was easier to pull the others out than changing everytime the fingering. And the sound for 23 with only one valve is better!
    Saluti, Helmut

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
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    Thank you very much Helmut, I'll see how it goes; for the moment I am very surprised and pleased with how the instrument has responded, beyond my most optimistic expectations.
    Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone,4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves 1974, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hidden Valley, AZ
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    930
    Franz, I don't quite understand what you are referring to when you say the "C" horn can play bass clef parts without transposing.

    Bb euphs play bass clef in concert pitch all the time, as the written note is indeed the true pitch. No transposing there.

    Reading treble clef is where you do the transposing.

    Furthermore, I have charts in bass clef for Bb flat and C Euph/Saxhorn, and they are written differently.

    Dennis
    1966 Besson 181 highly modified New Standard
    1915 York Bb tenorhorn original
    2019 Wessex Tornister

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    Varese,Italy
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    300
    Quote Originally Posted by highpitch View Post
    Franz, I don't quite understand what you are referring to when you say the "C" horn can play bass clef parts without transposing.
    What I mean is that the euphonium (and all transposing instruments) played by reading in the treble clef does not play real notes, but a ninth under what is written. Now, with the euphonium if I have to play, for example, a Bb in the treble clef, I will have to lower the first piston, while in reality I am playing an Ab; if a C (effective Bb) I will not operate any piston. If I have to read a part written in the bass clef, therefore with real notes, I will have to change the positions of the notes in question (empty Bb, C first piston operated). With the French tuba in C I play real notes with the bass clef part maintaining the same positions used on the euphonium while reading in the treble clef (empty C, Bb first piston operated). Another method would be to use the transport and then read the parts written in the bass clef by reading in the mezzo soprano clef (C second staff), but I'm not very familiar with this clef, while I can easily do it with the tenor and contralto clefs (which I sometimes use with the trombone).
    Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone,4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves 1974, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by highpitch View Post

    Furthermore, I have charts in bass clef for Bb flat and C Euph/Saxhorn, and they are written differently.
    You can see this on most original works for the French C Tuba (or the typical edition for bass trombone, tuba or saxhorn basse).
    In France/Belgium/Netherlands the Bb Saxhorns are written in Bb bass clef transposition (C=0). So the Saxhorn parts of the solo works are written one tone higher, and you can find parts like this when you get a band piece from one of that countries. Sometimes funny in rehearsals when playing a piece for the first time!
    There were a lot of french instruments in C with a Bb extension. They were used by bands playing on sunday morning in the church (choral music written in C) and concert in the park in the afternoon (band music written in Bb). They just used the extension and pulled the slides a bit out and could read it the same way. Couesnon is still offering a 4v Saxhorn in C/Bb!

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Varese,Italy
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    300
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Charmer View Post
    You can see this on most original works for the French C Tuba (or the typical edition for bass trombone, tuba or saxhorn basse).
    In France/Belgium/Netherlands the Bb Saxhorns are written in Bb bass clef transposition (C=0). So the Saxhorn parts of the solo works are written one tone higher, and you can find parts like this when you get a band piece from one of that countries. Sometimes funny in rehearsals when playing a piece for the first time!
    There were a lot of french instruments in C with a Bb extension. They were used by bands playing on sunday morning in the church (choral music written in C) and concert in the park in the afternoon (band music written in Bb). They just used the extension and pulled the slides a bit out and could read it the same way. Couesnon is still offering a 4v Saxhorn in C/Bb!
    True, I have occasionally received, by mistake, a part written in the bass clef in Bb: many scores have the parts for euphonium both in the treble clef and in the bass clef in C and Bb.
    The Wessex French C tuba also has the Bb extension: the first test I did with the band I played in Bb holding down the 5th piston and lengthening the slides of the other valves. It worked well.
    Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone,4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves 1974, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

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    Here is a Couesnon C Tuba with Bb extension and convertible 3rd valve for 1,5 or 2 tone

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,080
    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Charmer View Post
    There were a lot of french instruments in C with a Bb extension. They were used by bands playing on sunday morning in the church (choral music written in C) and concert in the park in the afternoon (band music written in Bb). They just used the extension and pulled the slides a bit out and could read it the same way. Couesnon is still offering a 4v Saxhorn in C/Bb!
    But isn't the intonation of the horn with the Bb extension pretty dreadful? Using "extension" slides like this was fairly common in the late 19th and early 20th century for tubas in order to be able to play the horn in either "high pitch" (A > 440) or "low pitch" (A <= 440). But even there, intonation on at least one of those on a given instrument was at least a bit wonky. To try the same "extension tuning slide" approach for a difference of 2 half-steps can't yield very good results -- and especially on a conical bore instrument. Can it?
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (PT-63)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kellyberg
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  10. Maybe the intonation is in one key better than in the other, but for this special instrument I don't know, it is only one of my "horn porn" pictures.
    I have a Thibouville-Lamy 4v Saxhorn in C/Bb, made in ca 1905. In the different keys it totally changes character, but intonation is quite the same. Being a lower middle-class horn means: better than an ophicleide but not as good as my 1897 Besson Class A Prototype!

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