What Is the Value of Instrument Reviews?

[Magikarp]

Reviews are interesting, if entirely without actual value. Endorsers are only in it for the money.

My principle instrument is the drums and the world of drum kits really is an appalling cesspool of the professional opinion-giver and brand tart. Billy Cobham, anyone?

The only thing to do is test the hooters yourself and entrust the actual sound to a friend of tutor with decent ears. I never trust what I hear as being an authentic record of what noise is actually coming out of the end, or “spout” as Lyndon Baglin put it.

My only criterion for a euphonium is does it make a pleasing sound? Every other facet can be adjusted or developed.

I remember a guy coming to the music shop I worked and trying six Besson Prestige euphoniums and rejected them all because top c# didn’t speak properly. Hours of wasted time on a note that he would play not even 0.025% of the time. He’d convinced himself that was the most important thing and because he’d come by himself then confused himself. He’d been told what to think by other people, and read every conceivable review imaginable.

Reviews are, in my opinion, completely without merit, although it is interesting to see people tie themselves in knots trying to explain, or worse, demonstrate what they think.

[daruby]

Magikarp,

The group that volunteered to review the Sinfonico (myself included) are NOT being paid, have no business connection with Wessex whatsoever, personally own (or have owned) most of the top line horns from Adams, Besson, Miraphone, Sterling, Yamaha and others and have collectively over 200 years of euphonium experience at a professional or high amateur level.

Our work and commitment to review these horns may be without value to you, but I would suggest that detailed evaluations of ergonomics, mechanical issues, fit, finish, and subjective playability by musicians who are systematic in their process do have merit. OF COURSE, nothing replaces any players own experience with an instrument. Even better, having a set of listening ears of a teacher, professional artist, or fellow musical collaborator when you evaluate an instrument.

When I play tested my Sterling, I had the advantage of doing it at Paul Riggett's shop with Trevor Groom as my designated listener/co-evaluator during one of my frequent trips to England. However, here in the US, we are so geographically dispersed, and the accessibility of shops that carry an inventory of representative instruments is so remote for most of us, that having some feedback from a variety of independent evaluators is useful for narrowing down one's choices. For example, shipping an instrument 1/2 way across the country for purposes of evaluation can cost $75-$150 depending on carrier and weight. Many shops will front the cost of shipment one way, if you want to evaluate an instrument (usually for 7-14 days) for purchase. However, if you choose not to purchase, you end up paying the freight to return it (at minimum) or (more often) both ways.

Choose to be skeptical if you will, but I think the idea of having four diverse performers from the western, mid-west, and eastern US with varying backgrounds spend their own time evaluating new instruments independently from the vendor has merit.

Doug

P.S. And thanks to Dave Werden for maintaining this forum for so many years and keeping it free of mud-slinging and reckless opinion.

[MichaelSchott]

I’d add that in solo work the high C# is far more common than that poster thinks. Even in brass band test pieces.

[davewerden]

I’d add that in solo work the high C# is far more common than that poster thinks. Even in brass band test pieces.

And there is a very exposed C# in Holst's The Planets (orchestra version). It would be a heck of a note to miss if you got to play an orch gig!

[daruby]

Dave,

Don't forget the infamous concert B-natural in the slow intro section of Pantomime. I must admit, my 2007 Prestige 2051-2 had a miserable C# (B-nat). You learn to deal with it, My Sterling is not great and my Adams is better. But doing 1/16 note lip slurs from E-nat to B-nat (all on 2nd valve) every day helps a lot

Doug

[John Morgan]

And how about the B natural (C# treble) on the optional ending (who DOESN'T play that) of James Curnow's Rhapsody for Euphonium!!??

What is the best ever B natural on a euphonium? - Miraphone M5050. Plays just like any other note. My Adams is good, but not perfect. Always gives me something to work on, like Doug.

Doug - Linda (wife) read this entire thread and wants to send you cookies!! (That is a GOOD thing)

[guidocorona]

Daruby+++!

It saddens me to read reductionist posts alleging an inherent uselessness of shared experiences, including reviews/evaluations.... Does remind me of the depressing Pilatian "What is Truth?"

While a single review of a horn or other device may -- in some cases -- yield a partial or even unwittingly misleading picture of the target, multiple points of view do reduce the uncertainty by reinforcing shared aspects.

True enough, even a full set of reviews such as this Sinfonico travelling project is unlikely to yeald a perfect portrait of any euphonium, yet what the reader/listener is able to grok from written findings and assorted media music clips is enormously more illuminating than the absolute fog of having to wait for the nexgt ITEC in 2023 without any personal comparative experience

And even a personal experience and preferences does not negate the value of reviews posted by professionals and other respected members of the community.

Thus.... Please do continue to share your findings of Sinfonico and other euphoniums, and... Post music clips if you can.

Regards, Guido

PS. What about a future Shires Q40/Q41 joint review project?

[Snorlax]

And there is a very exposed C# in Holst's The Planets (orchestra version). It would be a heck of a note to miss if you got to play an orch gig!

...and have a look at the 1st Tenor Tuba part to the Janacek Sinfionetta. I think there are about 21 consecutive of those B naturals. Add to that the Alec Wilder Sonata, that STARTS on that B natural and goes down in a chordal pattern.

[Jharris]

Magikarp, unlike the drums where your position in relation to playing means you can mostly accurately hear the sound others hear… with brass instruments you are behind the sound, projecting the sound away from you….

This make others opinions helpful, recording yourself has other technical complications or limitations that can effect the purity of the sound, and hearing others play your instrument will sound different from you playing it.

(If I hit your nice sounding drums it sounds the same as when you hit them).

So a mixture of recordings and opinions is all you have to go on to begin making an informed decision or narrowing down the selection from the wide variety of instruments out there. After that you are correct, you need to try the horn and see how it makes you to feel when you play it.

With new instruments there are often returns policies to protect you if you don’t agree with the reviewers remarks. Not always the same case with used, and with most companies forced to distance selling this is currently difficult to negotiate when trying and buying…

If I try an instrument and seeing fairly consistent reviews and points being made, then find myself having a similar experience, this helps me reassure myself that I am not going mad, or to reaffirm my own decision. This the input of others is helpful, even if taken with a healthy pinch of salt.

Endorsed reviews are a completely different beast, and definitely should be taken for the advertisement tool they are, rather than a genuine review, but this forum has reviews with no such endorsement issue, and is providing a valuable service.

Skepticism is healthy, but outright dismissal is perspective limiting.

[miketeachesclass]

Not to mention that on the horn mentioned (the besson prestige), that note has a tendency to be a dog. I’ve played 5 or 6 examples of a prestige, and it’s been “not bad” on one of them. (The one I currently own).

I’ll agree with John that the 5050 has a good one. My Adams E3 was good as well.

I’d add that in solo work the high C# is far more common than that poster thinks. Even in brass band test pieces.

[Magikarp]

Magikarp,

The group that volunteered to review the Sinfonico (myself included) are NOT being paid, have no business connection with Wessex whatsoever, personally own (or have owned) most of the top line horns from Adams, Besson, Miraphone, Sterling, Yamaha and others and have collectively over 200 years of euphonium experience at a professional or high amateur level.

Our work and commitment to review these horns may be without value to you, but I would suggest that detailed evaluations of ergonomics, mechanical issues, fit, finish, and subjective playability by musicians who are systematic in their process do have merit. OF COURSE, nothing replaces any players own experience with an instrument. Even better, having a set of listening ears of a teacher, professional artist, or fellow musical collaborator when you evaluate an instrument.

When I play tested my Sterling, I had the advantage of doing it at Paul Riggett's shop with Trevor Groom as my designated listener/co-evaluator during one of my frequent trips to England. However, here in the US, we are so geographically dispersed, and the accessibility of shops that carry an inventory of representative instruments is so remote for most of us, that having some feedback from a variety of independent evaluators is useful for narrowing down one's choices. For example, shipping an instrument 1/2 way across the country for purposes of evaluation can cost $75-$150 depending on carrier and weight. Many shops will front the cost of shipment one way, if you want to evaluate an instrument (usually for 7-14 days) for purchase. However, if you choose not to purchase, you end up paying the freight to return it (at minimum) or (more often) both ways.

Choose to be skeptical if you will, but I think the idea of having four diverse performers from the western, mid-west, and eastern US with varying backgrounds spend their own time evaluating new instruments independently from the vendor has merit.

Doug

P.S. And thanks to Dave Werden for maintaining this forum for so many years and keeping it free of mud-slinging and reckless opinion.

I don't believe I accused anyone here of only being in it only for the money. The key word, possibly overlooked, is "endorsers".

As for other people testing an instrument, how does this actually, quantifiably, help anyone? So you think it makes a nice sound. That's bloody great. What does it mean? The sound adored by wind band players, or the sound of a British brass band soloist, or the weird straight drainpipe sound of an euphonium used in orchestra?

Intonation is good - this at least has some merit but even then is relative, and the description of fit and build is useful, but when even the cheap Chinese rip-offs are being quality checked it's not so much an issue.

I'm extraordinarily sceptical of the benefit of reviews, if not the philanthropic reasons for people here getting together for the greater good.

"Reckless opinion". Interesting choice of words - you might substitute different.

As for the top C# issue. Citing twenty examples of where there is one doesn't disguise the fact it is not a common note. I can cite hundreds of pieces where there isn't one so where does that leave us? How many are there in Pantomime? I can recall one in amongst literally hundreds of notes (I'll admit it's been a long while since I've played it, and there may be another in the variation that's normally omitted) . Hardly worth rejecting six hooters good in all other respects over. A year or so later he came, still auditioning instruments.

I'll ignore the implication of your choice of "mud slinging".

[Magikarp]

I’d add that in solo work the high C# is far more common than that poster thinks. Even in brass band test pieces.

No it isn't. Even in The Torchbearer there aren't that many, bearing in mind it's written in a key in order for difficulties' sake. I have an enormous library of test pieces, concertos, and solos, and it is far less than 1% of notes written. I'll concede may be it's brass band thing, but it just doesn't crop up even occasionally.

[Magikarp]

Magikarp, unlike the drums where your position in relation to playing means you can mostly accurately hear the sound others hear… with brass instruments you are behind the sound, projecting the sound away from you….

This make others opinions helpful, recording yourself has other technical complications or limitations that can effect the purity of the sound, and hearing others play your instrument will sound different from you playing it.

(If I hit your nice sounding drums it sounds the same as when you hit them).

So a mixture of recordings and opinions is all you have to go on to begin making an informed decision or narrowing down the selection from the wide variety of instruments out there. After that you are correct, you need to try the horn and see how it makes you to feel when you play it.

With new instruments there are often returns policies to protect you if you don’t agree with the reviewers remarks. Not always the same case with used, and with most companies forced to distance selling this is currently difficult to negotiate when trying and buying…

If I try an instrument and seeing fairly consistent reviews and points being made, then find myself having a similar experience, this helps me reassure myself that I am not going mad, or to reaffirm my own decision. This the input of others is helpful, even if taken with a healthy pinch of salt.

Endorsed reviews are a completely different beast, and definitely should be taken for the advertisement tool they are, rather than a genuine review, but this forum has reviews with no such endorsement issue, and is providing a valuable service.

Skepticism is healthy, but outright dismissal is perspective limiting.

That's not true about drums sounding the same from behind the kit as in front of them, demonstrably not true. It's also not true about a drum sounding the same if hit by anyone. Where drums differ is in the extent to which you can mould the sound to your own liking and how's it's possible to improve the sound of any drum.

A review cannot and should not be used to assess whether an instrument, be it kazoo or euphonium, is worth buying, and that is why they are pointless. But why else are they written? If people are serious about an instrument, go and play it. It's that simple. Most importantly, as I said, take an extra pair of very good ears. There seem to be a lot of reasons justifying why people can't travel to try instrument, and in a COVID world I get that, but otherwise just go and play the thing.

[Jharris]

Magikarp, a review from a source you kinda trust helps you work out what to TRY, because yes it’s completely a personal choice on what works for you when it comes to what to BUY.

When you go to a shop to buy anything, often pushy sales people, in order to do their job, or worse, meet a quota, will fill your head with nonsense in order to convince a sale. Good shops don’t push and advise only when asked, but we live in a capitalist society so money motivates more than we might like… so reviews help direct lines of enquiry, or to balance out sales motivated “advice” don’t see what your objection is really, but if you hate reviews, don’t read any then they can’t mislead/inform you.

Some people won’t buy a car without cruise control, others don’t care, either way the car drives perfectly fine. But each of those customers are quite right to have an option because of their driving style. Same applies with instruments…

Perhaps, you have come to moan about one player in your shop who insists that the Prestige is the answer, if he finds that elusive C# on it.

Either suggest that it is him and he needs to low tone practice to help with his higher range.

Or, a change of mouthpiece to something smaller, but then his lower range might suffer.

Or, shock horror, move away from Besson and sell him on another brand, one that might even be cheaper but requires less air to secure the high range.

Or, perhaps the poor guy just wants to have some social contact or doesn’t have the money required, and he will never ever buy anything. Some people are like this, either tolerate it with good humour, or move him on to another store… one that “has the first pick from the factory, and might be more likely to help him find what he is looking for.”

My experience with drums is, to my ears, what I have described, but as an expert drummer if you know and can hear differences between my hits and yours, that aren’t due to superior technique or a change of skin, I will bow to your wisdom. I know that you ideally want a different kit setup to play Jazz Vs Rock, but didn’t realise you can make a Jazz kit fit into a heavy metal band by modifying how you hit it, that’s quite fascinating as a concept, but this thread is supposed to be about Euphoniums…

I have read that different euphoniums are better suited to different ensembles, Adams different E numbers for example, at the minute I think the Sinfonico hasn’t been used by anyone/enough people, in a variety of settings, because of the pandemic, so that to me is the last piece of the puzzle not yet answered, and the feedback from that will also help people work out if they want to give it a TRY to see if it suits them. It might be a jack of all trades, perfect for those that play in multiple scenarios, it might be a master in one scenario and lacking in others… it will be interesting to hear the OPINIONS of those who are able to provide them. What they end up BUYING should be based on how they feel once it is in their hands, so that much is true.

[MichaelSchott]

No it isn't. Even in The Torchbearer there aren't that many, bearing in mind it's written in a key in order for difficulties' sake. I have an enormous library of test pieces, concertos, and solos, and it is far less than 1% of notes written. I'll concede may be it's brass band thing, but it just doesn't crop up even occasionally.

It’s enough that it’s important to many people. Just because your clinical analysis shows the note is rare doesn’t mean a buyer should ignore it.