FS: Lovely Conn Double-Bell Euphonium - Restored - ACT FAST

[notaverygoodname]

I hate always being the negative nancy, but someone needs to say it.

This is a Double Bell Baritone. Probably a 75-I. It would have come with both HP and LP tuning slides. The receiver has clearly been replaced, thank goodness, but still. I don't care how nice it looks. This is not going to be an instrument that plays well. I've got an Artist era 64-I and it's an absolute dog. If you spend $2000 on this expecting to play it in an ensemble, you'll be crawling back to your Euphonium in less than a month.

[davewerden]

I hate always being the negative nancy, but someone needs to say it.


This is a Double Bell Baritone. Probably a 75-I. It would have come with both HP and LP tuning slides. The receiver has clearly been replaced, thank goodness, but still. I don't care how nice it looks. This is not going to be an instrument that plays well. I've got an Artist era 64-I and it's an absolute dog. If you spend $2000 on this expecting to play it in an ensemble, you'll be crawling back to your Euphonium in less than a month.

I think you're missing the point a bit. First, this is not a baritone in the British sense of the word. It is a small euphonium. With any of these American-style euphoniums, you would indeed be disappointed if you expect them to play the same as even an inexpensive modern euphonium like the ACB or Wessex models we have discussed in depth.

My own DB is in great shape, was built to standard pitch from the get-go, and is a respected brand of American brass makers. But it is compromised from the standard non-DB model of the same vintage by having the weight and bore disruption of the added valve. The 2nd partial is quite flat, for one thing, which was not the case on other single-bell Holtons I have played.

I love having it and using it for a novelty. It's effect on the audience is dramatic simply because of the novelty of its appearance (one person said it reminded him of a two-headed cow he saw at the carnival). And I have managed to create a few effects on it that are not possible on my Adams. Here are some examples:

https://youtu.be/Izufz3geg-w

https://youtu.be/Ljo0j2tQ2VU

https://youtu.be/Z_ivqhjyAAs

https://youtu.be/fneakYq2FYU

So to me, that stuff is why I have it. Not once in my Coast Guard Band days was I tempted to use it in the section as a regular instrument, but that's OK - I had a good regular instrument! I would not recommend anyone buy a horn like this as their primary horn.

[John Morgan]

I think you're missing the point a bit. First, this is not a baritone in the British sense of the word. It is a small euphonium. With any of these American-style euphoniums, you would indeed be disappointed if you expect them to play the same as even an inexpensive modern euphonium like the ACB or Wessex models we have discussed in depth.

My own DB is in great shape, was built to standard pitch from the get-go, and is a respected brand of American brass makers. But it is compromised from the standard non-DB model of the same vintage by having the weight and bore disruption of the added valve. The 2nd partial is quite flat, for one thing, which was not the case on other single-bell Holtons I have played.

I love having it and using it for a novelty. It's effect on the audience is dramatic simply because of the novelty of its appearance (one person said it reminded him of a two-headed cow he saw at the carnival). And I have managed to create a few effects on it that are not possible on my Adams. Here are some examples:

https://youtu.be/Izufz3geg-w

https://youtu.be/Ljo0j2tQ2VU

https://youtu.be/Z_ivqhjyAAs

https://youtu.be/fneakYq2FYU

So to me, that stuff is why I have it. Not once in my Coast Guard Band days was I tempted to use it in the section as a regular instrument, but that's OK - I had a good regular instrument! I would not recommend anyone buy a horn like this as their primary horn.

I think a big +1 to your discussion and thoughts, Dave. Double bells have always intrigued me, and I have wanted one forever. But I am really picky and persnickety so that has ruled out most of the ones I see for sale. The one you posted at the top of this thread does indeed look nice, and I spoke with the folks who have it now and are selling it (a music store/repair shop selling it for a client). I spoke with a trumpet player who is a repair technician there, and he told me that he has perfect pitch, and he said the DB will play in tune (basically). I am sure it won't be perfect, but I am not looking for that. And I also would never substitute the DB for my Adams in a band or wind ensemble. This would be a horn I would use on special occasions, as a novelty, perhaps part of a small recital, things like that. It could be during a band concert, but only as a special piece. The New Horizons Band I am in plays for several schools each year and mostly for kids of elementary or junior high age. This audience would get a big kick out of the double bell I am certain.

I am still pondering this horn and have approached the sellers with some ideas, but I may lose out if I don't act soon. We shall see.

[notaverygoodname]

I think you're missing the point a bit. First, this is not a baritone in the British sense of the word. It is a small euphonium. With any of these American-style euphoniums, you would indeed be disappointed if you expect them to play the same as even an inexpensive modern euphonium like the ACB or Wessex models we have discussed in depth.

I am well aware of the difference between the Baritone Saxhorn, the British Baritone Horn, and the Euphonium. I own examples (multiple) of all three. There is a difference between a "Baritone" and a "Baritone Horn". Furthermore, associating this thing with American Euphoniums, like the 50-I and 30-I, is an insult to the Euphoniums. A hooped out 20-I will run circles around any Baritone.

The Baritone (Saxhorn) is not a good instrument. It requires a tiny mouthpiece, is incredibly stuffy to play, and doesn't particularly sound that good. You're not going to shove a 6.5AL in this thing and be off to the races. You're going to try stuff like the 40B until you give up.

[davewerden]

I am well aware of the difference between the Baritone Saxhorn, the British Baritone Horn, and the Euphonium.

Out of curiosity, in which category would you put my 1935-ish Holton DB?

And for clarity, are you saying the item listed here is a "Baritone Saxhorn"?

[notaverygoodname]

Out of curiosity, in which category would you put my 1935-ish Holton DB?

And for clarity, are you saying the item listed here is a "Baritone Saxhorn"?

Conn only used the terms Baritone or Euphonium to distinguish, and those terms were only really meaningful in the Artist era. I use the term Baritone Saxhorn to specifically indicate an instrument having some cylindrical tubing (~25%), as opposed to the minimum, and a size profile which is visibly above the average (Tenor Saxhorn / British Baritone). Being any more specific than that is basically impossible.

Your Holton does appear to have the proper bore profile of an American Euphonium.

Again, this distinction is most important in mouthpiece requirements. I was really disappointed in the performance of 1924 model 64-I. The Precision era version is probably leaps and bounds superior. For an idea of mouthpiece size difference, a JK P12F is barely small enough for the Besson 2-20 front action Baritone. That's 24mm cup diameter, cup depth around 6.75C, and 5.8mm throat. I could maybe improve performance with a larger throat, but I'm not willing to invest further in it. I already had to custom order that mouthpiece. I don't know what the stock mouthpiece would have been, but it wasn't the Besson 10.

[Richard III]

As someone who plays a 1935 Conn 64I, I am scratching my head. I bought it because I had a friend with one and thought it sounded great. I also have many period mouthpieces for it as well as modern ones. I remember one time I put in an old Conn baritone mouthpiece, and my band director at the time said I was getting that British sound. Not sure what he meant. But the horn does sound better than a few modern horns I've tried.

[davewerden]

I'm a little confused myself, but I admit to having limited experience with old horns. However, I have one more memory that influences me.

After owning my Holton for 20-25 years I was familiar with its good and bad points. One of the latter is the flat 2nd partial I mentioned above. At a local event ("Tubonium") they had new and used horns for sale, and I tried a King that had the tuning slide on its leadpipe. I'd always thought that to be a clear disadvantage in design (the whole conical thing), but that horn played better than mine. FWIW, I used the same mouthpiece I used in my own DB, a Wick 4AY because I had my DB there for my recital. Not only did it feel about the same as my horn but the 2nd partial was in tune.

As I said, I have limited experience...but not zero experience.

[notaverygoodname]

As someone who plays a 1935 Conn 64I, I am scratching my head. I bought it because I had a friend with one and thought it sounded great. I also have many period mouthpieces for it as well as modern ones. I remember one time I put in an old Conn baritone mouthpiece, and my band director at the time said I was getting that British sound. Not sure what he meant. But the horn does sound better than a few modern horns I've tried.

That's the Precision era 64-I which is pretty much a small bore Euphonium. I'm sure it completely destroys the Artist era Saxhorn derivative, and if I had $1000 burning a hole in my pocket, I'd have already bought the restored one that's on ebay.

*edit*
Screw it. Trying to explain this is way harder than just showing you. lol, Youtube video

I know it might not come through on video, but the Conn 20-I is so much easier to play than either of the Baritones, it's not even a contest.