Besson 4 Valve Compensating Brevete Question

[1Cor13:4]

I'm fascinated by all these classic instruments. Can someone give me their opinion on how this one would compare to say modern Chinese stencils like a Mack Brass?

SOLD FOR $1,200

https://www.ebay.com/itm/303971985252?hash=item46c6246764:gC8AAOSwp-lgeMQk

It looks like it's in great condition.

[notaverygoodname]

I have the 3V top action version which aught to be roughly the same in playing characteristics. Really good British Euph. Given that mine was a former school marching instrument that was obviously dropped more than once and repaired on multiple occasions, I'd rank the intonation as practically perfect. 4th partial is occasionally flat when it's warmed up and that's a pass I'm willing to give it.

Never played any of the new stuff, but the old Bessons are pretty hard to beat. Despite not being the hulking tanks that many people remember, you will definitely notice the difference between something like this and its American contemporaries in terms of how they feel and play.

Pros:
+ Big 12" bell
+ .580" bore. (I happen to think that's a good thing.)
+ Has that classic sound that everyone wants
+ The only thing more comfortable than front-action with a strap is ovalform with a strap.

Cons:
- If it's medium shank and you don't like what it comes with, you get to play the mouthpiece game. If it's not, you get to hope the last guy that worked on it did it right. Sure, an adapter is always an option, but yuck.
- It's over 60 years old at this point. Not much of an issue given the immaculate condition, but you know...
- Not every ensemble will be amused with your taste in Euphoniums if you show up with this.



What you do not want is any of the old Besson front-action Baritones (as in Baritone Saxhorn), like the Stratford or 2-20. Same .580" bore. Same 12" bell, but horribly cludged on. I've got a 2-20, and it's probably one of the best Baritone Saxhorn things ever, but that's not saying much. Takes more effort to play than a Euphonium, and absolutely refuses to play in tune with anything but the tiniest of cup volumes. Good luck getting a medium shank mouthpiece with small cup volume... Unless you have a wad of cash burning a hole in your pocket and you just have to play one, don't.

[highpitch]

That jewel would eat a Chinese horn for lunch...

Buy it.

DG

[1Cor13:4]

It's tempting, but I have the issue of not having the funds unless I sell my current instrument...but then I don't want to sell my current instrument until I have something else to play.

Also, is this from 1952ish? Is this high pitch, or low pitch?

[Shinn]

There is a less expensive 3-valve on top / forward bell advertised:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393250295879

David Werden started a separate thread on this horn:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...l#.YIQBIyX3aEc

[highpitch]

Low pitch A=440

DG

[Shinn]

Seller confirmed this front 3+1 forward bell 1935 Besson tunes to modern A=440.

[1Cor13:4]

It's this 1935? I tried looking it up and got 1952 ish

[Shinn]

Listing provides a SN 143871. The Besson cross-reference I typically use provides SN 143643 in Jan 1934 and SN 145199 in Jan 1935...which would indicate a 1934 horn...possibly(?).

Seller has confirmed it has been re-lacquered. Seller also states, “ The euphonium was probably made in the 1970s and was manufacture in modern pitch.”

Here is a link to the cross-reference I use:

http://www.dwerden.com/Special/bandh_handlists_web.pdf

[davewerden]

The forum has a Reference section that includes Besson / B&H serial numbers:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...sey-amp-Hawkes

The earlier date looks correct to me.

[1Cor13:4]

Mr. Wherden, if you've had experience with this type of Euphonium, how would you compare this to a modern Chinese stencil? I've always liked front valve for the ergonomics.

Also, would this have been converted to low pitch? Does that affect intonation?

[notaverygoodname]

All of the forward-bell Bessons were built for US market and would have been built as LP instruments. Supposedly, Besson was still making some high pitch instruments up to 1965, but I seriously doubt they accounted for any significant amount of production and definitely would have accounted for none of their out-of-market production. By the 1940s, HP was practically extinct.

[1Cor13:4]

Thanks for the info. All very interesting. Now that I'm playing again (and older) all this history is fascinating.

[1Cor13:4]

I'm a little confused. If this is a 1935ish instrument, I thought Besson couldn't make compensating euphoniums until they were bought by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s?

From that PDF you linked to:

"The British arm of the Besson Company was bought by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s"

also

"Brass instruments bearing the Besson name that were manufactured by Boosey & Hawkes (the UK instruments with serial numbers 185200 - 890008)"

Does that mean this is pre-merge since this is 143871?

So...is this a compensating euphonium? It looks like one to me, but I'm confused about the history of Besson/Boosey & Hawkes and compensating euphoniums.

I think what made me think this was more like ~1950ish is this image from Mr. Werden's link:

http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/postima...ialNumbers.png

on the bottom left it shows Besson serial numbers and 143871 would be sometime after 1948. It also shows "Boosey & Hawkes" in the middle of the page for 1935, but this instrument is branded "Besson" not "Boosey & Hawkes".

This would make sense if this is a compensating system, since Besson wouldn't have made those until their purchase by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s.

The "Boosey & Co./ Boosey & Hawkes Serial Numbers 14345-560000" lists this:
143643 1934 January
145199 1935 January

But I think since this is branded "Besson" and not "Boosey & Co" or "Boosey & Hawkes" it wouldn't follow that list and would probably follow the bottom left list from this: http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/postima...ialNumbers.png

[tjjc]

I'm a little confused. If this is a 1935ish instrument, I thought Besson couldn't make compensating euphoniums until they were bought by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s?

From that PDF you linked to:

"The British arm of the Besson Company was bought by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s"

also

"Brass instruments bearing the Besson name that were manufactured by Boosey & Hawkes (the UK instruments with serial numbers 185200 - 890008)"

Does that mean this is pre-merge since this is 143871?

So...is this a compensating euphonium? It looks like one to me, but I'm confused about the history of Besson/Boosey & Hawkes and compensating euphoniums.

I think what made me think this was more like ~1950ish is this image from Mr. Werden's link:

http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/postima...ialNumbers.png

on the bottom left it shows Besson serial numbers and 143871 would be sometime after 1948. It also shows "Boosey & Hawkes" in the middle of the page for 1935, but this instrument is branded "Besson" not "Boosey & Hawkes".

This would make sense if this is a compensating system, since Besson wouldn't have made those until their purchase by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s.

The "Boosey & Co./ Boosey & Hawkes Serial Numbers 14345-560000" lists this:
143643 1934 January
145199 1935 January

But I think since this is branded "Besson" and not "Boosey & Co" or "Boosey & Hawkes" it wouldn't follow that list and would probably follow the bottom left list from this: http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/postima...ialNumbers.png

This is definitely a compensating horn, indicated by the long valve cylinders and extra runs of tubing. If you look carefully, you can find all of the "loops" that a 4-valve compensator should have.

Clearly the Besson/B&H serial lists are incomplete or hard to interpret. Since this horn has most of the hallmarks of the 3+1 configured New Standards - top and bottom valve caps, conical finger buttons, "Besson" engraving - I would guess that it is a contemporary of the New Standard model. I'm not sure when the New Standard line originated, but I would guess 1950s at the earliest, 1970s at the latest for this horn.