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Thread: Besson 4 Valve Compensating Brevete Question

  1. Mr. Wherden, if you've had experience with this type of Euphonium, how would you compare this to a modern Chinese stencil? I've always liked front valve for the ergonomics.

    Also, would this have been converted to low pitch? Does that affect intonation?
    Last edited by 1Cor13:4; 04-25-2021 at 11:38 PM.

  2. #12
    All of the forward-bell Bessons were built for US market and would have been built as LP instruments. Supposedly, Besson was still making some high pitch instruments up to 1965, but I seriously doubt they accounted for any significant amount of production and definitely would have accounted for none of their out-of-market production. By the 1940s, HP was practically extinct.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  3. Thanks for the info. All very interesting. Now that I'm playing again (and older) all this history is fascinating.

  4. I'm a little confused. If this is a 1935ish instrument, I thought Besson couldn't make compensating euphoniums until they were bought by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s?

    From that PDF you linked to:

    "The British arm of the Besson Company was bought by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s"

    also

    "Brass instruments bearing the Besson name that were manufactured by Boosey & Hawkes (the UK instruments with serial numbers 185200 - 890008)"

    Does that mean this is pre-merge since this is 143871?

    So...is this a compensating euphonium? It looks like one to me, but I'm confused about the history of Besson/Boosey & Hawkes and compensating euphoniums.

    I think what made me think this was more like ~1950ish is this image from Mr. Werden's link:

    http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/postima...ialNumbers.png

    on the bottom left it shows Besson serial numbers and 143871 would be sometime after 1948. It also shows "Boosey & Hawkes" in the middle of the page for 1935, but this instrument is branded "Besson" not "Boosey & Hawkes".

    This would make sense if this is a compensating system, since Besson wouldn't have made those until their purchase by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s.

    The "Boosey & Co./ Boosey & Hawkes Serial Numbers 14345-560000" lists this:
    143643 1934 January
    145199 1935 January

    But I think since this is branded "Besson" and not "Boosey & Co" or "Boosey & Hawkes" it wouldn't follow that list and would probably follow the bottom left list from this: http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/postima...ialNumbers.png
    Last edited by 1Cor13:4; 04-28-2021 at 03:15 PM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    McIntosh, FL
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    25
    Quote Originally Posted by 1Cor13:4 View Post
    I'm a little confused. If this is a 1935ish instrument, I thought Besson couldn't make compensating euphoniums until they were bought by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s?

    From that PDF you linked to:

    "The British arm of the Besson Company was bought by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s"

    also

    "Brass instruments bearing the Besson name that were manufactured by Boosey & Hawkes (the UK instruments with serial numbers 185200 - 890008)"

    Does that mean this is pre-merge since this is 143871?

    So...is this a compensating euphonium? It looks like one to me, but I'm confused about the history of Besson/Boosey & Hawkes and compensating euphoniums.

    I think what made me think this was more like ~1950ish is this image from Mr. Werden's link:

    http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/postima...ialNumbers.png

    on the bottom left it shows Besson serial numbers and 143871 would be sometime after 1948. It also shows "Boosey & Hawkes" in the middle of the page for 1935, but this instrument is branded "Besson" not "Boosey & Hawkes".

    This would make sense if this is a compensating system, since Besson wouldn't have made those until their purchase by Boosey & Hawkes in the 1940s.

    The "Boosey & Co./ Boosey & Hawkes Serial Numbers 14345-560000" lists this:
    143643 1934 January
    145199 1935 January

    But I think since this is branded "Besson" and not "Boosey & Co" or "Boosey & Hawkes" it wouldn't follow that list and would probably follow the bottom left list from this: http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/postima...ialNumbers.png

    This is definitely a compensating horn, indicated by the long valve cylinders and extra runs of tubing. If you look carefully, you can find all of the "loops" that a 4-valve compensator should have.

    Clearly the Besson/B&H serial lists are incomplete or hard to interpret. Since this horn has most of the hallmarks of the 3+1 configured New Standards - top and bottom valve caps, conical finger buttons, "Besson" engraving - I would guess that it is a contemporary of the New Standard model. I'm not sure when the New Standard line originated, but I would guess 1950s at the earliest, 1970s at the latest for this horn.

  6. Wessex used a Besson of this type (with the same distinctive valve caps and buttons) as a template for their Festivo Euphonium. They sold it afterwards stating 1958 or 1959 for manufacturing date

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snake Charmer View Post
    Wessex used a Besson of this type (with the same distinctive valve caps and buttons) as a template for their Festivo Euphonium. They sold it afterwards stating 1958 or 1959 for manufacturing date
    I thought they based it on the Marzan/Willson front-action compensating horn? I seem to recall them selling that horn through their website.
    A friend of mine, a tuba player, acquired a Marzan-branded front-action compensating euphonium. He later offered it to me for sale, but I wasn't in the market for another horn.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 mouthpiece
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL and Faxx 7C mouthpieces (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo; RIP) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  8. I think they did base it off this model Besson as they described in here:

    https://wessex-tubas.com/blogs/news/...omic-euphonium

    "Previously, the only front valve euphonium available was of European origin - made in Switzerland and costing as much as a small car! I didn’t want us to copy that, of course. I wanted us to develop our own, unique design.

    Then, a couple years ago, I came across an old and rare Besson euphonium from the 1950's which, very unusually, not only had front valves but also a forward bell!"
    Last edited by 1Cor13:4; 04-30-2021 at 12:53 PM.

  9. If anyone's interested, it sold for $1200.

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