Besson Prestige (Gold Lacquer) review/experience

[ChristianeSparkle]

I am so fascinated by this talk of floating leadpipe. What would happen if we try to detach our leadpipes on other makes and make them floating leadpipes? Haha. The only time I've had a "floating" leadpipe was on a Yamaha convertible Euphonium years ago in high school.

[Magikarp]

I find the obsession with floating leadpipe a bit odd to be honest. Of my thirteen euphoniums I’ve owned, four have had the floating leadpipe, and all the ones I prefer haven’t had.

I am giving serious thought to treating myself to a gold Prestige later in the year and it’s the only real area that’s causing me any concern (it’s not a big concern). The only other area I’m worried about is finish because the German Prestiges I had all had varying degrees of finish problems.

I like the fact it looks tacky and meretricious, although Geneva have cornered the market in the truly obnoxious combinations of materials.

On a playing note, if the new leadpipe configuration cures the woes of flat middle and top B naturals (treble clef), it’s a good thing.

[miketeachesclass]

It is an interesting thing. I would think that the design of a horn would take into consideration where all the bracing is, and accommodate that in terms of horn response. That said, plenty of folks use lefreque plates and notice a difference; I have to assume changes in bracing on a lead pipe changes things. I certainly notice a difference.

That said, I would never make a blanket statement like “floating lead pipes are better” - if the instrument plays well, it plays well, lead pipe be damned!

I am so fascinated by this talk of floating leadpipe. What would happen if we try to detach our leadpipes on other makes and make them floating leadpipes? Haha. The only time I've had a "floating" leadpipe was on a Yamaha convertible Euphonium years ago in high school.

[miketeachesclass]

I’ll say the finish on this horn is quite good.

I kind of like the Geneva material combinations. (And I liked the silver/black York combinations). That said, I find the engravings on the GVL model horn thoroughly gaudy.

While the concert B naturals arent “fixed”, they’re markedly improved.

I am noticing a few intonation oddities, but I’ll wait to comment for a few days. I want to make sure it’s not just me.

Lastly, after having their “brass experts” review, Thomann wants me to send the horn back for repair or replacement. (See my first post about the first valve and casing). So I’m not sure how I’m going to handle that.

I find the obsession with floating leadpipe a bit odd to be honest. Of my thirteen euphoniums I’ve owned, four have had the floating leadpipe, and all the ones I prefer haven’t had.

I am giving serious thought to treating myself to a gold Prestige later in the year and it’s the only real area that’s causing me any concern (it’s not a big concern). The only other area I’m worried about is finish because the German Prestiges I had all had varying degrees of finish problems.

I like the fact it looks tacky and meretricious, although Geneva have cornered the market in the truly obnoxious combinations of materials.

On a playing note, if the new leadpipe configuration cures the woes of flat middle and top B naturals (treble clef), it’s a good thing.

[Micah.Dominic.Parsons-OFFLINE]

Hello everyone,

I have been following this post with great interest, I have tested quite a number of Besson Prestige 2052-2 Euphonium's and I find each instrument is really consistent especially when compared with other brands of instruments. I believe I have the only Silver Plated Besson prestige 2052-2 Euphonium with a fully floating leadpipe and I absolutely love the may my instrument sings. If anyone has any questions I would always be happy to respond to them.

I look forward to seeing how you get on with this instrument Mike!

Best Wishes,

Micah Dominic Parsons

[davewerden]

Before I switched to Adams euphoniums I played a Sterling Virtuoso. The Sterling had a floating leadpipe. The Adams has a soldered leadpipe. Conventional wisdom says that a floating pipe frees the response but takes away a bit of the tone's solidity. That doesn't match my experience with these 2 horns. When I first considered switching to Adams I made an extensive A/B recording and had several trusted colleagues listen to the unidentified comparison. Most liked the Adams, but they all said the two were very close in sound. In playing, I found the Adams had a freer response and one of my colleagues noted that the Adams horn gave me more freedom of expression in one place (not know which horn it was).

So that little test would knock holes in the conventional wisdom I mentioned. However, I was comparing two different brands, which introduces all kinds of other variables. (The one consistency is that my Sterling and the Adams used the same valve set, which has an effect on how a horn plays). My conclusions are:

1. My tests don't totally disprove the conventional wisdom because of the other variables. I believe a floating leadpipe would respond more freely, based only on logic. Whether that would have a good or bad effect on tone...I can't rely on logic to say one way or the other.

2. Because of other variables between brands, or even models within the same brand, I would not "go shopping" for a horn with a floating leadpipe.

In other areas where I had some experience/expertise, like shoes, cars, and stereo gear, for the most part you needed to go by the total result, not by the presence of a feature that "should" improve things. It's the same for horns. I don't personally care how my leadpipe is affixed to the bell - I just want the horn to make it easier for me to get the result I want out into the room.

[miketeachesclass]

Agreed.

I think if you played two examples of the same model side by side, you'd notice a difference. Obviously Besson has decided that for this model they want to build it with a fully floating lead pipe for some reason.

Otherwise, just picking a horn that makes it easy to be "you" on the horn is where it's at.

I fully recognize I'm too darn fiddly.

<SNIP>

1. My tests don't totally disprove the conventional wisdom because of the other variables. I believe a floating leadpipe would respond more freely, based only on logic. Whether that would have a good or bad effect on tone...I can't rely on logic to say one way or the other.

2. Because of other variables between brands, or even models within the same brand, I would not "go shopping" for a horn with a floating leadpipe.

In other areas where I had some experience/expertise, like shoes, cars, and stereo gear, for the most part you needed to go by the total result, not by the presence of a feature that "should" improve things. It's the same for horns. I don't personally care how my leadpipe is affixed to the bell - I just want the horn to make it easier for me to get the result I want out into the room.

[JakeGuilbo]

They couldn't be bothered to look at the valves before shipping the horn to you? On a horn they've had since December? Why does this seem prevalent throughout the industry? So many mfg miss easy to fix QC issues and don't bother putting in that extra TLC. Quite clearly that valve has issues, it's pretty egregious that it even shipped.

[miketeachesclass]

Yeah, it seems like a QC issue for sure.

Same thing happened with the Miraphone I had with this issue. To Thomann's credit, they came back to me within 24 hours with a proposed resolution, up to and including replacing the instrument. Not so with the miraphone - twice, the dealer told me "this is normal; nothing to see here". It took me sidestepping the dealer and using a backdoor contact at Miraphone to get it resolved.

You're right - too prevalent in the industry.

They couldn't be bothered to look at the valves before shipping the horn to you? On a horn they've had since December? Why does this seem prevalent throughout the industry? So many mfg miss easy to fix QC issues and don't bother putting in that extra TLC. Quite clearly that valve has issues, it's pretty egregious that it even shipped.

[daruby]

There are important differences between the floating leadpipe on the standard Prestige, new gold lacquer Prestige, current Sovereign, Adams, and Sterling Virtuoso. The Sovereign's leadpipe wraps further around the bell such that the horn can be held closer to the performer's body. The Prestige, Adams, and Sterling all have straighter leadpipe angle allowing the elbow to be held higher and the hand to be in a position more similar to a 3 valve cornet. Further:

1. The Adams has a soldered leadpipe that is directly attached to the bell as well as to the valve body and receiver brace. This is similar to Besson New Standard and earlier models of Sovereign (mid-1970s to early 1990s).
2. The Sovereign and gold lacquer Prestige have floating leadipes only attached at the valve body ferrule and the receiver brace.
3. The standard Prestige and the Sterling Virtuoso have floating leadpipes attached at the valvebody, receiver brace, and a mid-point standoff as well.

Doug

[tokuno]

1. The Adams has a soldered leadpipe that is directly attached to the bell as well as to the valve body and receiver brace. This is similar to Besson New Standard and earlier models of Sovereign (mid-1970s to early 1990s).
2. The Sovereign and gold lacquer Prestige have floating leadipes only attached at the valve body ferrule and the receiver brace.
3. The standard Prestige and the Sterling Virtuoso have floating leadpipes attached at the valvebody, receiver brace, and a mid-point standoff as well.

Doug

Thanks for this!
I was on the verge of googling for the answer, but skeptical that I'd get useful information.

[miketeachesclass]

After a few days of playing the horn, I’m noticing that the concert Bb (on top of the bass clef) seems flat relative to both Bb’s an octave either direction. That one seems strange to me.

[bbocaner]

There's a cool podcast that these two guys in Berlin do, it's called the "Best Ever Brass Instrument Makers Podcast." I think I have the details of this sort of right... They told a story about how when B&S was in East Germany Mr. Tucci and Mr. Perantoni would come visit to select the best tubas to be branded "Perantucci" and exported, leaving the rejects for the local players in East Germany. Some of the factory workers got together with the local teacher at the conservatory to sabotage the best instruments by intentionally misaligning the valves. These ones wouldn't play well for the play test and would not get exported, then it would be a simple fix to put them right again. Seems one of them slipped through and was never put right and one of these tubas came into the shop years and years later with the player complaining it was stuffy. Lo and behold, one VERY misaligned valve.

[miketeachesclass]

I appreciate the hilarity of that!

There's a cool podcast that these two guys in Berlin do, it's called the "Best Ever Brass Instrument Makers Podcast." I think I have the details of this sort of right... They told a story about how when B&S was in East Germany Mr. Tucci and Mr. Perantoni would come visit to select the best tubas to be branded "Perantucci" and exported, leaving the rejects for the local players in East Germany. Some of the factory workers got together with the local teacher at the conservatory to sabotage the best instruments by intentionally misaligning the valves. These ones wouldn't play well for the play test and would not get exported, then it would be a simple fix to put them right again. Seems one of them slipped through and was never put right and one of these tubas came into the shop years and years later with the player complaining it was stuffy. Lo and behold, one VERY misaligned valve.

[Micah.Dominic.Parsons-OFFLINE]

Hello Mike,

I was wondering if you had any update for us on the new Gold Lacquer Besson Prestige 2052-2 Euphonium?

Best Wishes,

Micah Dominic Parsons