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Thread: Newbie

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853
    This might be one of Dave’s posts you were looking for on how to care for a brand new horn.

    http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic....abe5e3#p434826
    its by Dave Werden but actually on TubeNet

    This post in Dave’s blog is also very good:
    http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.p...n#.YHO5di33ahA
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  2. #32
    Thanks Rick...just got the chance to read your post. Both of Daves' posts about horn maintenance are great to know. I'm paying more attention to the valves after playing the horn each time now. It all makes sense. Interesting about the "milk" method of old times. I don't think I'll take it to that extreme, but I like Daves' method -pouring a little valve oil down the leadpipe and blowing it through the horn.
    Joe

  3. #33
    JoeMin asked some time ago, “Will turn 70 in Dec … how do I go about looking for a new horn?” I think many of us newly-retired folks are asking that question. When I retired from my day job, I re-discovered my baritone horn and joined two community ensembles. I decided to treat myself to a better instrument. I spent many hours reading and re-reading comments on this forum about makes and models. But how to find an instrument to play before buying?

    I just play in community ensembles, so I was willing to pay up to $2000 for a new instrument, or $1200 for a good used instrument, but could not justify spending $10,000 for my dream instrument.

    As an intermediate player, my search was different than an advanced player in another way, too. Advanced euphoniumists prioritize “tone” over “intonation” in choosing a euphonium. After all, their tone is their trademark, and their superior ears and lips enable them to bend notes to the right pitch on the fly. I had to prioritize “intonation” over “tone,” because I want the best tone possible, but correct pitches are mandatory, and my ears and lips need lots of help from the instrument to get all the pitches pretty close.

    What about a used professional instrument? I found two old Bessons, but they are not renowned for their intonation, and I would have to drive a long way to test-play them, and they were pretty beat up, and I wasn’t really prepared to pay $3,500.

    For months I puzzled over how to try out intermediate euphoniums and mouthpieces. Directors and musicians and repairmen couldn’t tell me how.

    With regard to mouthpieces, I eventually learned that some vendors will give you a full refund if you return a mouthpiece timely in excellent condition. I bought and returned a number of mouthpieces. They produced very different intonation (and tone and ease of producing certain notes).

    With regard to euphoniums, conferences could be an option, but I was not prepared to attend any conferences.

    There were three music stores fifty miles away that would let me play-before-buying, but none had any new or used euphoniums that were both in stock and in my price range.

    I decided to rent. School was in session, so there was little selection – certainly no intermediate euphoniums – but I was able to rent a student model Yamaha YEP-201. I tested its intonation using the method Dave Werden describes on this forum – a method designed to test the inherent intonation of the instrument rather than the abilities of the player. Hurray, it played much more in tune than my own instrument (with better tone, and reached notes easier)! However, this horn had a sticky valve and the repairman couldn’t remedy the problem. I talked to a repairman in another shop; he reported similar experience with Yamaha euphoniums. I had considered getting a used Yamaha YEP-321; the model has many intermediate fans, and many are available used online. But now I wasn’t sure whether I’d be buying a valve problem, and I could not find one in “good” condition for $1200, and it bothered me that the lower register would be out of tune (and missing the B1) because it doesn’t have a compensating system.

    That left me in the market for a Chinese-made euphonium, though definitely not the direction I had wanted to go. My plan now was to buy an instrument, try it, and return it if it didn’t have the intonation I wanted. Some received good reviews for their intonation on this forum, and a fourth valve would provide new alternate fingerings to improve pitch, and a compensating system would improve pitches in the lower register.

    Having read about the intonation of the Wessex, John Packer and Austin Custom brands, I tentatively ranked them in that order with regard to intonation. My bank wouldn’t let me buy from Wessex because there had been so much fraud in UK-transactions (!), so I bought a John Packer JP-274 from Df Music in Chicago for $1700 including shipping. I was so excited! But I resolved to return it if the intonation wasn’t better than the YEP-201 I had played.

    I tested the intonation of the JP-274, again using the method Dave Werden describes on this forum. I used four different mouthpieces, including three provided by the vendor. I tried every possible alternate fingering when necessary. The results were worse than the student-level YEP-201. So, with great gratitude to Richard for his graciousness, I returned the JP-274 and the mouthpieces.

    I e-mailed Wessex, telling them that my bank hadn't let me pay them. Laura suggested that I try an international wire transfer. A trip to the bank and $45 later, the transfer was complete. Laura gave me a 5% discount, so I paid $1700 including shipping for a Wessex EP-100GB Dolce. I tested the intonation; as before, I used Dave Werden’s method and tried several different mouthpieces. Hurray, success! Using the right mouthpiece and alternate fingerings as necessary, the EP-100 wanted to play every note within 15 cents of proper pitch. I decided to keep the EP-100.

    Nine months after my purchase, I still constantly play with my eye on a tuner. Using alternate fingerings, the Wessex still puts every note close to pitch, and my ears and lips are getting more accurate at producing exact pitches.

    Incidentally, I am told that I produce very good tone with the Wessex.

    I hope to post a more detailed comparison of the intonation of the JP-274 and EP-100GB, to add to those already posted previously. I think it's sometimes useful for intermediates to see the results obtained by intermediates.
    Wessex EP-100GB Dolce euphonium + Schilke 51D mouthpiece
    Maine Pops Concert Band
    Portland (Maine) Community Orchestra

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853
    Welcome to the forum Marcoso! Very informative post and congrats on your new Wessex! I think after playing your Wessex for awhile you won't have to have the tuner setting on your stand all the time. You'll get used to which notes need to be lipped up or down or use alt-fingerings to play in tune.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Farmington Hills, MI
    Posts
    472
    Nice post Marcoso! It’s always a journey when shopping for a new horn. For forty years I owned a Willson 2900S. Great horn with a great sound. I consider myself a very good player and I put up with the 2900’s well known intonation issues but when I read about Adams Custom euphs I started to consider a change. It’s a lot of work to play in tune all of the time even for a pro level player. That’s why triggers have flourished. And one of the prime reasons I loved to the E3 is the superior intonation. It’s far easier to play in tune than any euphonium I’ve ever played.
    Last edited by MichaelSchott; 08-31-2023 at 07:41 PM.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,868
    Welcome indeed, Marcoso! You took a good approach to getting a new instrument. As a former owner of a Wessex Dolce Euphonium (I gave mine away recently to a student who played in my community band and was heading to college and a music degree), I think you have made a great choice. The Wessex is just a very good horn for a very reasonable price. I hope you get a lot of enjoyment from it and many years of playing with your community ensembles. What mouthpiece did you settle on with the Wessex?
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  7. #37
    Thank you much for your interest and encouragement.

    I'm using a Schilke 51D, because it enables me to use the same mouthpiece (with different shanks) in my Wessex euphonium and 1963 Holton Collegiate American baritone horn. It's very good with my euphonium and phenomenal with the baritone.
    Wessex EP-100GB Dolce euphonium + Schilke 51D mouthpiece
    Maine Pops Concert Band
    Portland (Maine) Community Orchestra

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,868
    Quote Originally Posted by marcoso View Post
    Thank you much for your interest and encouragement.

    I'm using a Schilke 51D, because it enables me to use the same mouthpiece (with different shanks) in my Wessex euphonium and 1963 Holton Collegiate American baritone horn. It's very good with my euphonium and phenomenal with the baritone.
    Of course, I neglected to read your signature block where you mention your mouthpiece.

    I actually use the same mouthpiece on my euphonium as I do on my symphony sized tenor trombone, a Demondrae Warburton signature piece. I love it. Have been using it for over 10 years now.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    NYC metro area
    Posts
    523
    Quote Originally Posted by John Morgan View Post
    [snip]I actually use the same mouthpiece on my euphonium as I do on my symphony sized tenor trombone, a Demondrae Warburton signature piece. I love it. Have been using it for over 10 years now.
    John,

    I find that interesting. I've got a medium-bore trombone (Bach 36B) and a Mack Brass (Jin Bao) euphonium. I purposefully use different mouthpieces to try to get the most characteristic sound from each instrument (Bach 6.5AL and Bowman BB1). I'm curious to know if you find your trombone sound to have lesser-prominent upper overtones than that of others in your section.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 mouthpiece
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL and Faxx 7C mouthpieces (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo; RIP) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Summerfield, Florida Sturgis, SD (summers)
    Posts
    1,868
    Quote Originally Posted by dsurkin View Post
    John,

    I find that interesting. I've got a medium-bore trombone (Bach 36B) and a Mack Brass (Jin Bao) euphonium. I purposefully use different mouthpieces to try to get the most characteristic sound from each instrument (Bach 6.5AL and Bowman BB1). I'm curious to know if you find your trombone sound to have lesser-prominent upper overtones than that of others in your section.
    Dean,

    So here is the whole story with the same mouthpiece. Linda and I went to the ITEC in Iowa back in 2019. At the time, I owned my Adams E3, and used the Demondrae Warburton mouthpiece (the one I got when I bought my Miraphone M5050). I also owned an Edwards Joe Alessi model trombone and used a Griego mouthpiece with that. I brought my Warburton piece (the silver one, I also have a gold one which I use daily) to the conference so that I could doodle on whatever horns were brought by the various vendors. Adams happened to have their new Adams TB1 trombone there, and Miel asked me to give it a try. I used the Warburton on it, and I loved it! It did not sound to me like a euphonium mouthpiece on a trombone. Now this trombone is a large bore tenor (.547), the one that takes the same sized shank as a bass trombone or euphonium. I bought the trombone then and there.

    When I returned home, I sold my Edwards. I had a couple of my trombone friends, one from the symphony where I played bass trombone in, over to hear the new horn. I played duets with the principal of the symphony, and we sounded great together. I asked him to really listen to the trombone to see if it sounded funky or un-trombone like to him. He said it didn't. That was what I thought as well. This Warburton mouthpiece gives my Adams trombone a great sound, and a characteristically true trombone sound. I really did not expect this at all. I can't answer about upper overtones with a lot of certainty, but my ears hear the trombone sounding and blending fine with other trombones.

    I think Don Winston (on this forum) also uses (used) the Demondrae Warburton with his euphonium and trombone, although I seem to remember that he more recently uses a different piece with his trombone.

    Using the same mouthpiece for euphonium and trombone may seem unusual, but look at the Wick 4AL. That is sold as a trombone mouthpiece, and we all know it is a very popular mouthpiece for euphonium.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium,
    1973 F. E. Olds & Son Studio Model T-31 Baritone
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Year Round Except Summer:
    Kingdom of the Sun (KOS) Concert Band, Ocala, FL (Euphonium)
    KOS Brass Quintet (Trombone, Euphonium)
    Summer Only:
    Rapid City Municipal Band, Rapid City, SD (Euphonium)
    Rapid City New Horizons Band (Euphonium)

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