Alliance DC3 vs. Wick 4AL Results and MORE!

[davewerden]

I've been testing my trusty Wick 4AL (classic style) compared to a new Alliance DC3 (David Childs signature model). David says he was happy with the 4AL he used to have, and when Alliance approached he said he would only switch if it was like his 4AL only better! And he thought if fulfilled that need. I'm not sure I find the same thing, but that was not a parameter I had set.

They play in a similar way, but...

The DC3 feels larger. The cup size is the same, so I attribute that to a more rounded rim. A more rounded rim should negatively affect articulation, but that doesn't seem to be the case for me (the comments here support that, I think). The throat is nearly identical, BUT the DC3 has a more open backbore sooner by quite a lot. That should negatively affect endurance for a while, and I have not noticed that either, but my stability is not great yet so it's hard to know for sure. 23 years of very uneven, and mostly infrequent practice take a while to make up for. (My practice now is regular, so it is gradually improving my state.)

For the record, the tally of opinion as of 11:14 Central time on Tuesday is:
RED: 6
BLUE: 14
MIX: 1 (but several of you saw benefits in each mouthpiece)

I'll post the breakdown at the bottom of the post.

Because the Alliance WAS so similar to the 4AL in many ways, I tried to find its own characteristics before doing the A/B tests. So I played exclusively on the DC3 for 2 weeks prior to the recording. Even so, the 4AL felt like my comfy shoes when I switched back to it, so I was not totally "into" the DC3 yet as a distinct model. But it did help me give it a fairer chance in the showdown!

If I were to play nothing but the Holst 2nd Suite for the rest of my life I would stay with the 4AL. I don't think there is a better piece to show its value in the world of mouthpieces. But of course I will play other things. I was previously enjoyed better articulation with the Ultra 4U and the Heritage mouthpieces I used for a while (each). But I gave up comfort and other outcomes with those, so the trade-off didn't work for me.

My next piece to record is Czardas (although we may sneak in a little Faure piece I just arranged at some point first). On Czardas, the extra clarity of articulation and the more focused sound of the DC3 would be just fine, so I will keep playing it at least until then. After that we want to get back to the Arpeggione, and I think then I will re-test the 4AL. The Arpeggione requires a LOT of refinement and subtle musical touches, and is not so articulation heavy. The more focused DC3 would be fine in that regard, but I want to see if the 4AL just plain makes everything easier to play or if the DC3 does that. Could be that neither will stand out that way.

I'm leaning hard toward the DC3. I believe I can bring more to the Holst if I just work more on that type of playing with the DC3, for one thing. And I often feel like I want a better center than I can get from the 4AL - the DC3 might bring that to the table.

I thank ALL OF YOU for your input! Obviously the decision is still up to me, but your opinions were very helpful in focusing my thoughts.

"Vote" breakdown:

graeme: red, narrow margin
MikeS: blue
guidocorona: blue (#2)
Vito: blue
RichardIII: blue
daruby: red, lean
John Morgan: blue
RickF: blue
franz: blue
bbocaner: blue
Nbnarcisi: blue
Rodgeman: red
adrian_quince: blue
euphisto: blue
carbogast: mix
JakeGuilbo: blue
longhornpatino: blue
aroberts781: red, close
miketeachesclass: blue
Magikarp: red
DutchEupho: red (and he really nailed a guess as to the 2 mouthpieces!)

[davewerden]

Here is the video where I discuss the differences, including at least one very interesting measurement!

https://youtu.be/2ILwCg-XzOc

[daruby]

Dave,

I had a DC3 for quite some time. To me, the rim actually felt just a bit smaller than the 4AL. After trying for some time, I came back to the 4AL.

Doug

[davewerden]

Dave,

I had a DC3 for quite some time. To me, the rim actually felt just a bit smaller than the 4AL. After trying for some time, I came back to the 4AL.

Doug

Interesting! Someday when I have time and feel like cleaning the "archived" mouthpieces in my Wick 4AL collection, I should compare all of them. Maybe the rim on my current 4AL is flatter, which could account for it feeling smaller. I've heard from a few sources that either the design or the production variances cause older Wick's to feel and sound different from newer ones.

[John Morgan]

I am a tiny bit surprised that you would be even entertaining the idea of switching mouthpieces. Seems like you have been fond of the 4AL forever almost. But I suppose there is always that itch to try something new to see if it truly is "The Holy Grail" of mouthpieces and does just that ever so little bit more in satisfying your mouthpiece expectations/requirements. I have been using the Warburton Demondrae Thurman Signature Model from the time I got a Miraphone M5050, which was 9 or so years ago. I used it on the M5050, then on a Wessex Dolce, and I have been using it with my Adams E3 that I have had for 5 years.

I admit I have tried a few others for a very brief time each over these past 9 years, but have always returned to the Demondrae piece, it just simply works for me. I use a gold plated version on my euphonium, and the stock silver one that came with the M5050 on my Adams tenor trombone, so same piece for both horns, which is real nice.

I will be curious to see what you decide, Dave, in the final outcome. Or maybe you keep both in your stable and use one or the other based on what you plan on playing. Could be a possibility. Us retired folks have nothing but time on our hands to figure these things out, yes?

[John Morgan]

I've heard from a few sources that either the design or the production variances cause older Wick's from feeling and sounding different from newer ones.

I am thinking you meant "keep" instead of "cause". Or "cause older Wick's to feel and sound different from newer ones". You have probably been in "mouthpiece overload" for a couple days now...

[davewerden]

I am thinking you meant "keep" instead of "cause". Or "cause older Wick's to feel and sound different from newer ones". You have probably been in "mouthpiece overload" for a couple days now...

Something like that - I fixed it (assuming I'm as awake as I think I am). Thanks!

[davewerden]

I am a tiny bit surprised that you would be even entertaining the idea of switching mouthpieces. Seems like you have been fond of the 4AL forever almost.

Well, 30 years anyway! And before that for a while it was a 4BL.

But over all that time I have thought, "I really like this except for..." Fuzz in the tone was the first thing I noticed, and the clarity is not quite what I want sometimes. I think my last effort was talking to Parker Mouthpieces in Knoxville at ITEC. But while the one he gave me was really nice and felt good on the face, it didn't have that open sound that has kept with with the 4AL. So I've been looking, at least half heartedly.

[Magikarp]

Fascinating! I briefly had an Alliance 4 which was too small, but even so, had something tangibly better about it. I’ve been thinking about trying one for a while. I think I will investigate.

[daruby]

Dave, at one point in the very recent past I had six Wick 4ALs. They fell into three categories of "feel". I have kept two of the six that are pretty close to each other.

1. My original Wick 40 year old gold plated 4AL that came with my 1980 Sovereign 967. This 4AL had a sharper rim and the rim was not as "deep" as the more modern versions below. This mouthpiece definitely did not have the Wick "fuzz". It responded well but didn't have richness of tone of the later mouthpieces. It was also lighter due to less metal in the rim. I no longer have this mouthpiece.
2. One 4AL in which the "4AL" was in small letters. This is my current favorite. The mouthpiece plays just a bit larger (more rounded rim?).
3. Several newer ones for which the "4AL" has larger letters. I have kept one of these I purchased from Mouthpiece Express about 2 years ago. I would say that the rim feels just a bit flatter and the mouthpiece plays just a bit "smaller" (i.e. doesn't respond quite as well in the lower range)

In the case of both of the newer 4AL's, they also play a bit "smaller" than a Wick SM4X or Alliance E3. I have more stamina with the 4AL but have to work just a bit harder to get stable response in the low range.

Doug

[Richard III]

Well, 30 years anyway! And before that for a while it was a 4BL.

But over all that time I have thought, "I really like this except for..." Fuzz in the tone was the first thing I noticed, and the clarity is not quite what I want sometimes. I think my last effort was talking to Parker Mouthpieces in Knoxville at ITEC. But while the one he gave me was really nice and felt good on the face, it didn't have that open sound that has kept with with the 4AL. So I've been looking, at least half heartedly.

It is funny how people stick with what they know, even though it is not quite right. The issues you mention are what I hear during the demonstration. The open sound that you enjoy sounds to me "too open" and is missing some of the core and fullness of a complete sound. I would call it an over spread sound.

I think the DC mouthpiece has the sound you might be looking for. But I would investigate the DC4 also. People who say such and such is too small in diameter may be just talking about what they are used to. I would give it a try.

[massmanute]

The voting is closed, but I thought I would give a comment anyway. This is certainly a non-expert opinion using my own non-standard, non-technical description. I thought the blue had a bigger, bolder, and more extroverted sound. The red was more introverted or introspective. I thought the tone quality of the red was sweeter, which is not to say more mellow, maybe even less mellow, but somehow sweeter in tone. As for a preference, I dunno, maybe it just depends on what kind of a sound you want to accomplish. You sounded great on either one.

[Shinn]

‘I'm leaning hard toward the DC3. I believe I can bring more to the Holst if I just work more on that type of playing with the DC3, for one thing. And I often feel like I want a better center than I can get from the 4AL - the DC3 might bring that to the table.

I thank ALL OF YOU for your input! Obviously the decision is still up to me, but your opinions were very helpful in focusing my thoughts.’



Based upon Dave’s auto signature he chose the Alliance DC4…correct?!?!

[davewerden]

Based upon Dave’s auto signature he chose the Alliance DC4…correct?!?!

Yes, that is what I'm currently playing. (If I were still in a full-time gig I would have stayed with the DC3 I tested, but the 4 makes life a little easier for my aged chops!)

[Shinn]

Thank you for the confirmation. Greatly appreciate the reviews and videos of the Alliance DC mouthpieces!