Baritone high range

[Howellsimon]

Hi. So, not sure what the issue is but, have purchased a brand new Neo 831 Baritone.
I love the sound and response BUT what is going on with (treble clef) high A, B and C? They’re sooo unreliable it’s untrue.
My old 956 required some work on the A, but was nothing like as ‘tricky’ as on the Neo.
(For info) My round stamp euph plays like the 956.
Is this getting used to a new horn, unsuitable mouthpiece, or something else entirely?
Mouthpiece being used is wick 7CS (or Wick 6BS)
I’ve used the 7cs for about 5 years and the 6bs about the last 18 months. I’m pretty much interchangeable between them.
Help?....

[davewerden]

It MIGHT be a matter of breaking in. First, all brass instruments seem to benefit from being played.

But in the case of Yamaha it may be more important. I noted at the last two ITEC's I attended that the Yamaha euphoniums had valves that were mis-aligned. The pads were too thick. The rep at the display said they do this so valve alignment is correct once the horn is broken in (and the pads would have flattened somewhat). In this case it was the finger button pads not allowing the piston to go down far enough. I could not easily check if the pad on top of the piston was the same way (not allowing the piston to come up fully into alignment).

[Howellsimon]

Thanks Dave - that makes sense, I’ll try to have a look at it - not sure if I’ll be able to see much, but I could perhaps measure with my vernier?
Many thanks - it would be great if that was all it was. Just getting panicked after spending £3400 gbp on it - in case it’s a dud... Although it was a dealer purchase so it’s fully warranted.
Have a great Christmas and thanks again.

[bbocaner]

high D (treble clef, concert C) on mine is pretty flat either open or with first valve, the only bad note on the instrument - it works great with 1+3, but I haven't noticed the notes leading up to it being "unreliable".

Interestingly when I ordered a set of replacement felts for my YBH-831 the ones that go on top of the valves were much thicker than the originals, even considering that the originals would have gotten crushed through their lives. What I was told was that yamaha made a mistake with the original felts. I did my best with a cheap USB borescope and the right-angle mirror attachment to check the alignment and I *think* it's better with the newer felts. I didn't notice a massive difference in the way it played, though.

[bbocaner]

also, should be fine with a wick 6bs or 7cs, both are pretty mainstream mouthpieces and the instrument was developed with the 6bs in mind.

[Howellsimon]

Thanks Dave and Barry for your thoughts. Hers what I have done today.

1. Kept the mouthpieces the same as I’m used to AND
2. Removed the as new Yamaha felts on the top of each valve and replaced with an old B and H felt.
Yamaha felts (as new) 4mm thick
Old (used) B and H felt is 2.5mm thick
High notes much easier to hit cleanly when using the old B and H felts. Still not perfect but a whole lot better. So I’m guessing the valve felt thickness (and related valve alignment) are certainly a problem in my case.
So what’s all that about then - in a brand new instrument?
I get the whole valve alignment thing (I’m a mech engineer) and I get the thicker felts as new - as they will gradually get squashed, but by that amount .......??
Not a very scientific experiment that I’ve done - in fact very rough and ready, but it seems to prove the as new Yamaha felts are too thick?
Can’t see any valve alignment without the correct tools, so it’s suck it and see.
Anyone else ever had this on ANY NEW brass instrument?
All thoughts welcome.....

[davewerden]

I confess that I don't understand why Yamaha does it this way. Adams, and I think Besson & others, use synthetic pads. On my Adams and previously on my Sterling (with similar pads) the alignment was good to start and did not change. The valves are also pretty quiet and stay that way. Yamaha is using felt, which is going to get flatter with use. It's hard to understand why they would display horns with brand new felts for people to test. Or rather, it's hard to understand why people trying the Yamahas like them enough to buy them! The felts are probably a bit quieter when new and thick, and are probably going to get noisier as they flatten out. But Yamaha seems very strong in the market and has some enthusiastic followers, so who am I to criticize? They are very focused on quality, consistent products, so maybe there's something I'm just not seeing about the felt thing.

[Howellsimon]

So, the thinner felts has DEFINITELY restored the high range - so a massive thanks to you Dave and Barry for pointing me in the right direction.
The remaining puzzle is WHY it was played perfectly well when I tested it in the shop (and I tested it for at least 2 hours) and why the high range gradually went to crap over the 3 weeks I’ve owned it...
The ONLY explanation I can come up with, is this:
It sat in its case after manufacturing and before I purchased it. Let’s say it sat in its case unplayed for 9-12 months? During this time the valves would have been ‘up’ and therefore compressing the felts on top of the valves.
Let’s say this compressed the felts by 1mm??
I’ve been playing it a few weeks and perhaps this has allowed some of the ‘storage’ felt compression to be released and so the felts have gone back to manufactured thickness of 4mm?? Hence the felts WERE compressed via storage and ok for test playing but regular playing has allowed the felts to return to original thickness??
That’s the only logic I can put behind it.
Original Yamaha felts measure 4mm thick of which 1.5mm is red felt and the remaining 2.5mm is a white synthetic type material.
I suspect the red felt can compress over time and the white sponge more or less retains its thickness and that’s what’s happened. I suspect if I persisted with it, the red would again compress and maybe (over time) stay compressed thus realigning the ports?
Frankly I really don’t know, but it’s the only logic I can come up with.
I might put a new thread up titled‘Yamaha felts and high range - baritone’ in case anyone else stumbles on this issue.
Massive thanks
Simon

[superted]

In my personal experience, as well as advice I've collected over the years, alternate fingerings are essential up in that range for most baritones.

A works a lot better on 3rd.
C is a problem with no standard solution, but try 1st.
B is always flat on lots of different instruments, I use 2nd and lip up.

I would tune those slides to those notes and then see if the instrument feels more in tune with that setup.

You might be able to lip the notes into submission with regular fingerings but reliability is not great when lipping.

Last bit of suggestion - have the valve alignments checked. When I got a new Neo euphonium, the factory felts were way too thick.

[Howellsimon]

Thanks Ted - much appreciate the advise and experience.
I use 3 for high A as all the horns I’ve ever played just don’t seem to want to play high A reliably on 12; but haven’t tried your suggestions for B and C, so I will have a go this afternoon.
I believe from the rough experiment I did that the Yamaha felts were too thick, but I’ll run it back to the dealer at some point in the new year and get him to check. What a beautiful sound the Neo baritone makes - just gorgeous!
Thanks and happy playing
Simon

[Art Lewis]

When I played the Yamaha Baritone for the first time, I also had the feeling that nothing works in high range. Above C concert it became exhausting. I actually expected the baritone to be a specialist in high notes. Anyone coming from the euphinium must first familiarize themselves with the changed air flow and resistance. After playing the baritone almost exclusively in the last few months, lo and behold: Suddenly the high notes on the euphonium seem more arduous than usual. When I play both instruments every day, the range is exactly the same for me (highest usable note is F, fingering 13). So far, I haven't given any thought to the felts on my Yamaha instruments. But I'll have the instrument maker check it out.

[Howellsimon]

That’s very interesting and based on what I’ve experienced in the last couple of days, I’d almost guarantee something to do with the felts.
I’ve put in some well used B and H felts that are much thinner than original Y felts and whilst it isn’t perfect it’s massively better than it was.
I’ll have it all apart at some point soon and measure everything properly and fit new ‘sized’ felts of the correct thickness based on the dimensions I get, so that I know the valves will be properly aligned.
I’ll report back when I’ve done it - it’ll be a week or two.
If I can prove the valve alignment/ Yamaha valve felts, I’ll drop a note to Yamaha, as I can’t see this will be doing them favours.
I’ve read elsewhere that Y deliberately supply the felts thicker as they will compress over time - if that’s the case, why don’t they have a note in with every new instrument? Totally bizarre.