ACB Doubler Round 2 - Dave's Tests

[davewerden]

Thanks to John for getting the ball rolling nicely with some insightful feedback! Looks like I'm up next, since the horn arrived today.

I ran a preliminary intonation check, and may update it if need be later. You can see/compare here:

http://www.dwerden.com/Intonation/index.cfm

I have a few initial comments, but hope to do a church recording session later this week.

I've asked ACB to check the bore. My caliper says it is .590-ish and it measures the same as my Adams. But it's just a number.

Random initial thoughts...
So far the horn plays very easily, after only a little time with it this afternoon. John Morgan observed something that I did as well. The 3rd partial has 3 or 4 stuffy notes just below the F concert (they are flat as well, even though the F is not - check the intonation chart linked above). And the B natural on the 2nd bass clef line is really flat. That is fairly common on compensating horns, though, because it is darned hard to make the 2nd compensating loop short enough.

My spousal unit was on the main floor as I was testing it in the basement, and she thought it sounded quite nice. Not quite as good as my Adams, but it sounded like a similar type of tone.

I was VERY impressed going from the floppy-chop pedal range up chromatically through the stuffier compensating range just above it. I could do it smoothly from the get-go, which is a little rare in general and more rare in brand-new horns.

As John observed, the fit & finish seem nice and slide action is really good (except for a seemingly-frozen 1st valve comp slide on the rear side. Even the short-legged 2nd valve slide works well.

I'm excited to do more testing! Stay tuned.

[daruby]

Interesting that the Wessex Dolce and ACB Doubler intonation charts almost superimpose on each other. I noticed the 3rd partial pitch (D3 - E3) right away. Seems a bit weird, though the stuffiness makes it almost seem like a leak that may be at a nodal point in that partial. Those are not in the compensating loop (1-2, 1, 2) since 4th valve isn't used on those notes. Hmmm? It would be worth having Trent have his person check the pitch and response in that partial on the other two examples he has.

[John Morgan]

Checking the other Doubler samples at Trent's place is an excellent idea, Doug. Looking forward to more feedback from Dave (and others). This is a novel, and quite good idea, I might add. Trent, you may have started something here by sending your new horn around the block. Let's hope more will do this.

[Ajeasley]

When I was at ACB in person a few weeks ago, I played all three doubler horns that were there. RE: the 3rd partial intonation and stuffiness, that was pretty much universal across all three examples. Otherwise, I would chalk up any variation in the horns to how much finishing work had been done at the shop in KC, based on what the technician who greeted me mentioned.

Caveat that I didn't spend as much time with the instrument(s) and I wasn't nearly as thorough with the tuner as Dr. Werden - just a quick pass of the typical hot spots and a double check of what my ears heard in a few other places.

[davewerden]

I should have mentioned...

When running my tuning tests I will use 3 instead of 12 when it is beneficial. On this horn I used it on the upper G concert, but otherwise 12 worked best on the rest of the range. (That is not unusual at all - in fact, in many tests 3rd is handy on 2 or 3 of the notes in the scale.)

Other than the 3rd partial issue, the story is actually pretty good. For example, the 6th partial is not nearly as sharp as on the British Sovereign 967. On the ACB you would not have to use 13 for the 6th partial Eb (although it would help the pitch on the ACB):

[bbocaner]

Dave - a suggestion about your intonation charts. Perhaps it's too late because you may not have all this data, but maybe you could use a different color or shape for the data points for each note if an alternate fingering was used? It'd be nice to know which instruments are well behaved with the standard fingerings and which need some alternates.

[davewerden]

Dave - a suggestion about your intonation charts. Perhaps it's too late because you may not have all this data, but maybe you could use a different color or shape for the data points for each note if an alternate fingering was used? It'd be nice to know which instruments are well behaved with the standard fingerings and which need some alternates.

I agree 100%... and it's too late! I don't have all my notes from the original tests to indicate what I used, for starters. But I believe the ONLY "alternate" I used was 3 in place of 12 when appropriate. In my mind that is not really an alternate fingering - some texts on brass design history mention that 3rd was the fingering for 1-1/2 steps. Granted, most people today would consider it an alternate because we have been taught that 12 is the standard. I think the Arban book cements that as well, because it lists a couple times that you should use 3 for technical reasons. (Not totally sure about my memory on this one.)

Anyway your point is valid and as I typed my post above I had the same thought!

[davewerden]

Opinions needed. For fun, I recorded one of the pieces from the excerpt book today - Italian in Algiers (I've been doing several of them to add to a playlist on YouTube to help people understand the scope of the book). I used the ACB Doubler. It's pretty easy to play, but of course quite different from my Adams. Consequently there are some rough edges. So my question is, should I make this public and add it to the excerpt list? Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tixqc-izN6Q

[John Morgan]

I think it sounded fine to add to the excerpt list. I would expect that some of those using that excerpt book might play on instruments other than expensive top of the line brands, so using an inexpensive, but quite good euphonium, I think is a good idea. In fact, I think I would even mention the horn being played on, or at least that it is one of several very reasonably priced euphoniums.

Edit: Oops, you DID mention the horn being played on in the video, sorry about that.

[RickF]

I agree with John. It sounds fine Dave.

[daruby]

David,

I continue to be amazed how good you sound and how clean your play is. Add it to the list! If Trent had sent us the Satin lacquer horn instead of the polished brass one, no one would have been able to tell the difference!

Doug

[Ajeasley]

I don't recall if I mentioned this when I posted on my experience with the horns at ACB, but I'll reiterate that the satin lacquer finish looks really nice! Of course, I'm easily sold on anything that conceals fingerprints and other smudges.

[AustinCustomBrass]

Opinions needed. For fun, I recorded one of the pieces from the excerpt book today - Italian in Algiers (I've been doing several of them to add to a playlist on YouTube to help people understand the scope of the book). I used the ACB Doubler. It's pretty easy to play, but of course quite different from my Adams. Consequently there are some rough edges. So my question is, should I make this public and add it to the excerpt list? Thanks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tixqc-izN6Q

As always you sound amazing! I gotta say this is so wonderful to hear you play our new horn! There's things we're already thinking about in terms of how much better we can get the horn and still keep it in the friendly budget our doubler's line is known for. In terms of the bore I'll take another measurement asap. We just launched our busiest week + here at the shop and we're a bit short-staffed as well. I am so glad I came to check on the thread and am so appreciative for everyone giving us the feedback and this opportunity. Without trade-shows in the near future this is really a wonderful option.

Many thanks and super respect!
-T

[davewerden]

Thanks all for the comments!

FYI, the video is now public (the link is still the same). I added some description for the video explaining the ACB Doubler, too.

[davewerden]

FYI2, I plan on making at least one more demo video. I already have "footage" where I show and talk about the horn, but that will need a good deal of editing. I don't work from a script, so I'm finding my best way to say things on the fly.

And Sara and I had to reschedule our session for Monday. Assuming that does not get moved, I'll record something in the church with piano.