Conn 90G Remington? Bach 6 1/2 w/Conn Adapter Need Help Please Read

[hntjr]

First I'd like to Thank David Werden for having this website. As a result I got a referral to a WTB for a Conn 90G on Euphonium-Tuba Forum. Thanks also to David Shinn who referred Stuart Dye to me with a excellent Conn 90G.

I received the Conn 90G today. It has a Remington labeled mouthpiece with no model number listed. I also have a Conn 25i and use a Conn adapter with a Bach 6 1/2 AL. My Conn 25i came with a Conn Remington 5 mouthpiece.*

After cleaning the valves and mouthpiece,* I played the Conn 90G and found it a little awkward to hold and didn't have a very good playing response. So I put my Bach 6 1/2AL with the adapter into the receiver and it didn't fit at all, it was much too small. I put the Conn Remington 5 in and it also was too small.*

So what's going on? Did Remington have more than one standard size shaft? Is this analogous to Bach Small and Large shafts or was Remington different entirely?*

Thanks for your help.
Have a good day.*
Nelson*

[daruby]

Did Remington have more than one standard size shaft? Is this analogous to Bach Small and Large shafts or was Remington different entirely?

The trombone "Remington" is nearer a bass trombone shank while the Conn 25I is nearer what we call "Euro-shank" these days.

[notaverygoodname]

I'm not sure if Conn actually called the other shank sizes Remington or that's just poor documentation. I thought they were all the same name for a while, but have since given up on the idea.

The mouthpiece labeled Remington will have the actual Remington shank. It's 13mm @ 4.something% taper, which is completely different than normal. You can find mouthpieces with Remington shank here and there. I actually stumbled on a 6-1/2 AL-LR and bought it a long time ago, so they do exist. All of the other Connstellation era (and after) mouthpieces should be using normal 1:20 (5%) taper. The Conn 5 is specifically for the 24-I and 25-I, so...uh oh.

I'm not sure which "medium shank" the 25-I is using, so if you can, please measure it! I've heard that it is compatible with the common "Euro shank" mouthpieces, but I'm not rich enough to find out for myself. Normal Euro shank is appoximately 11.7mm @ 1:19, I have a very old modified Conn mouthpiece which is 11.5mm @ 1:19, and I've managed to finally spec out the crazy receiver of my 20-I and found that it should be using 11.25mm @ 1:20.

If you think that's complicated, you haven't seen the half of it. There are so many different shank sizes used for tenor instruments, it's not even funny.

[daruby]

The 24I/25I use a medium shank that is slightly larger than a regular euro shank. The Conn adapter (if you have one) will work in a Willson 2900 or Besson New Standard, but the Besson adapter that I had with my vintage 1971 New Standard would not work. To get a Wick 5BM to work in my Conn 24I, I had to shave about 3/16" - 1/4" off of the end so that it would not bottom out in the receiver. The taper was close enough that it then seemed to engage correctly.

Generally, I just rcommend that people use the adapter and tenor shank mouthpieces. I hated the Conn 5 mouthpiece that came with the horn.

[flotrb]

Perhaps this would be of help:

https://www.hickeys.com/search.php?q=045889

[tjjc]

It's been a while since I played a 90G, but I believe it had a bass trombone receiver. You might try a large shank mouthpiece in your 90G to see if it fits.

[hntjr]

I tried calling Ted Waggoner at Conn-Selmer. I have talked with him in the past about Conn, F. E. Olds and Bach. He was very helpful in the past. Unfortunately Ted has retired and the response I got back from Conn-Selmer was not very satisfactory. "Thanks for reaching out to us. I wish I could be more help, but we are unable to provide information on vintage instruments. You might try contacting a music store that specializes in vintage instruments." Todd Neuenschwander I called Conn-Selmer a couple of times during the day and got an answering machine. I finally left a message. With Covid 19 they might be working remotely or not at all.

Thanks for the responses above. I will be contacting Doug Elliot and pursuing a large shank and/or an adapter that is larger than the one I use on my Conn 25i with a Bach 6 1/2AL.

[flotrb]

Why do we have to constantly contend with: "I'm not a real doctor, but I play one on TV"?

I hope that you can find what you are looking for here:

jsmith@connselmer.com
Jason Smith
Trombone Product Manager
Conn-Selmer Inc.
600 Industrial Pkwy
Elkhart, IN 46516

[notaverygoodname]

Why do we have to constantly contend with: "I'm not a real doctor, but I play one on TV"?

Because no one ever documents anything. The only people who any information about anything specific like this are the people who actually own the item and know the required information about it. Owning something and knowing nothing about it are not exclusive.

What's 25i shank? Apparently, it's bigger than Euro shank. How much bigger? What's Euro shank? No one knows because no one documents it. You know how I know what Euro shank is? I took probably 1000 measurements of several mouthpieces, bought a Besson Euphonium, and bought a custom mouthpiece (BLIND) to double check my measurements. $135 to guess and check. Good thing I got it right the first time?

[flotrb]

Because no one ever documents anything...Owning something and knowing nothing about it are not exclusive.

This is from the Conn Loyalist site
"It has a #4½ bore (0.547"). The 90G was produced between around 1970 and at least 1974. I gather that the 90G's bell section is that of an 8H pasted on to a euphonium valve section. Apparently the 90G was first developed for use by the Ohio State University Marching Band, who wanted something with a larger bore than the King Trombonium. OSUMB purchased 90G's around 1970. Same bell as the famous Conn 88H"

This is from the Horn Guys concerning Schilke-Remington mouthpieces:"... specially made for tenor and bass trombones having a large Remington shank style receiver. Examples of these trombones include Elkhart, Indiana production of the Conn 8H, 88H, 60H 62H, 70H-73H and others."

This is from the C.G.Conn Product Manual, 1960 (regarding the 24i):

[daruby]

Conn 90G - Ohio State University upright Marching Trombone

To the original poster: hntjr

I followed the information regarding the Conn 90G on the Loyalist site. A bit hard to find on the Loyalist site but based on looking at this https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn90G1970image.html, it appears to clearly have the valve section of the of a typical Conn American-style baritone of the late 1960s (Director 15I or Artist 21I bell up models). After the valve section, there appears to be a "dual slide" tuning section (like old high-pitch->low-pitch conversions). Then you get into the rest of the wrap through the bottom bow and to the bell section, which appears to be Conn 8H.

If they truly were trying to make this a large bore tenor (.547) upright valve trombone, then the question is what kind of leadpipe/receiver combination is on the horn. The picture is not clear, but at the time frame, 8H's came with the classic Remington trombone shank (not the Connstellation euphonium shank that you already know). The leadpipe does NOT look like anything from a 15I, 201I or 25I, but was probably cuistom to this particular horn. I have never had a vintage Conn trombone, but I would suggest for mouthpiece either adapting a bass trombone shank tenor mouthpiece (6 1/2AL or 5G) in a Bach or one of the Schilke's (48, 51D, ?) suggested by flotrb.

Doug

[flotrb]

Here is a nice collection of photos of the 90G https://picclick.ca/Elkhart-Conn-90G...048916472.html
(click "See More")

[notaverygoodname]

This is from the Conn Loyalist site
"It has a #4½ bore (0.547"). The 90G was produced between around 1970 and at least 1974. I gather that the 90G's bell section is that of an 8H pasted on to a euphonium valve section. Apparently the 90G was first developed for use by the Ohio State University Marching Band, who wanted something with a larger bore than the King Trombonium. OSUMB purchased 90G's around 1970. Same bell as the famous Conn 88H"

This is from the Horn Guys concerning Schilke-Remington mouthpieces:"... specially made for tenor and bass trombones having a large Remington shank style receiver. Examples of these trombones include Elkhart, Indiana production of the Conn 8H, 88H, 60H 62H, 70H-73H and others."

This is from the C.G.Conn Product Manual, 1960 (regarding the 24i):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8020[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8021[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8022[/ATTACH]

And none of that confirms whether or not the 90G has the Remington shank receiver, nor does it provide enough information to reproduce the 24-I/25-I shank without an example of the either the adapter or the mouthpiece. Which was my point.

Let me explain in great detail the problem with this. There's two scenarios.

1) If the receiver is indeed for the Remington shank, then the receiver opening is going to be roughly 14mm (let's assume it has expected insertion depth of 25mm, and 4.183% taper). A large shank mouthpiece is going top out at the receiver opening and wobble around with an insertion depth of 30mm. Now the mouthpiece is 5mm too deep, assuming it didn't plow into something. Not enormous, but you are going to notice that. You'll really notice when your mouthpiece falls out and wrecks the shank for the fifth time is as many days.

2) If the receiver is large shank and you insert a Remington shank mouthpiece, things are much worse. The Remington shank will bottom out, not into the leadpipe, but into the actual taper 10mm early (regardless of intended insertion depth). This is dramatically off and will damage the mouthpiece receiver. A gap of +10mm is enough to cause significant problems with playing the instrument.

[flotrb]

Bach mouthpieces use a Morse taper: 0.05208" (1.322832 mm) rise per inch length.

Conn Remington mouthpieces, which were manufactured in Elkhart IN in the 1970's and supplied with Conn 8H, 88H, 60H 62H, 70H-73H and others, use a Brown and Sharpe taper: 0.04167" (1.058418 mm) rise per inch length.

I played a new 1962 Conn 24i euphonium for 4 years in college. I do not recall the OEM mouthpiece, but my mouthpiece of choice at the time was a Bach 3 with a standard tenor trombone shank. The OEM adapter was the only way a tenor shank would fit and a bass trombone shank would not fit. I also played a Conn 72H bass trombone in H.S. which came with a Remington mouthpiece, my favored mouthpiece, a Bach 1½G, large shank, would not fit properly, and wobbled.

[flotrb]

If they truly were trying to make this a large bore tenor (.547) upright valve trombone, then the question is what kind of leadpipe/receiver combination is on the horn.

Doug

I am currently waiting on a reply from Jason@Conn-Selmer for a "from the horse's mouth" email.

My position is this: if the 90G is Conn's competitive presentation of an "upright large-bore valve trombone" special order, it was/is not unlike Conn to use whatever parts were available, coupled with the least amount of re-tooling ($$$). The .547" bore horns at the time were the 8H and 88H, so why re-tool?