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Thread: Conn 90G Remington? Bach 6 1/2 w/Conn Adapter Need Help Please Read

  1. Conn 90G - Ohio State University upright Marching Trombone

    To the original poster: hntjr

    I followed the information regarding the Conn 90G on the Loyalist site. A bit hard to find on the Loyalist site but based on looking at this https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn90G1970image.html, it appears to clearly have the valve section of the of a typical Conn American-style baritone of the late 1960s (Director 15I or Artist 21I bell up models). After the valve section, there appears to be a "dual slide" tuning section (like old high-pitch->low-pitch conversions). Then you get into the rest of the wrap through the bottom bow and to the bell section, which appears to be Conn 8H.

    If they truly were trying to make this a large bore tenor (.547) upright valve trombone, then the question is what kind of leadpipe/receiver combination is on the horn. The picture is not clear, but at the time frame, 8H's came with the classic Remington trombone shank (not the Connstellation euphonium shank that you already know). The leadpipe does NOT look like anything from a 15I, 201I or 25I, but was probably cuistom to this particular horn. I have never had a vintage Conn trombone, but I would suggest for mouthpiece either adapting a bass trombone shank tenor mouthpiece (6 1/2AL or 5G) in a Bach or one of the Schilke's (48, 51D, ?) suggested by flotrb.

    Doug
    Last edited by daruby; 10-29-2020 at 09:20 PM.
    Sterling Virtuoso 1065HGS & Adams E3 Prototype 0.70 Top Sprung valves
    Sterling Virtuoso 1050HGS baritone
    New England Brass Band
    Winchendon Winds/Townsend Military Band

  2. #12
    Here is a nice collection of photos of the 90G https://picclick.ca/Elkhart-Conn-90G...048916472.html
    (click "See More")
    Last edited by flotrb; 10-29-2020 at 11:36 PM. Reason: Clarification
    flotrb

    Доверяй, но проверяй
    (Trust, but verify)

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by flotrb View Post
    This is from the Conn Loyalist site
    "It has a #4 bore (0.547"). The 90G was produced between around 1970 and at least 1974. I gather that the 90G's bell section is that of an 8H pasted on to a euphonium valve section. Apparently the 90G was first developed for use by the Ohio State University Marching Band, who wanted something with a larger bore than the King Trombonium. OSUMB purchased 90G's around 1970. Same bell as the famous Conn 88H"

    This is from the Horn Guys concerning Schilke-Remington mouthpieces:"... specially made for tenor and bass trombones having a large Remington shank style receiver. Examples of these trombones include Elkhart, Indiana production of the Conn 8H, 88H, 60H 62H, 70H-73H and others."

    This is from the C.G.Conn Product Manual, 1960 (regarding the 24i):

    Attachment 8020

    Attachment 8021

    Attachment 8022
    And none of that confirms whether or not the 90G has the Remington shank receiver, nor does it provide enough information to reproduce the 24-I/25-I shank without an example of the either the adapter or the mouthpiece. Which was my point.

    Let me explain in great detail the problem with this. There's two scenarios.

    1) If the receiver is indeed for the Remington shank, then the receiver opening is going to be roughly 14mm (let's assume it has expected insertion depth of 25mm, and 4.183% taper). A large shank mouthpiece is going top out at the receiver opening and wobble around with an insertion depth of 30mm. Now the mouthpiece is 5mm too deep, assuming it didn't plow into something. Not enormous, but you are going to notice that. You'll really notice when your mouthpiece falls out and wrecks the shank for the fifth time is as many days.

    2) If the receiver is large shank and you insert a Remington shank mouthpiece, things are much worse. The Remington shank will bottom out, not into the leadpipe, but into the actual taper 10mm early (regardless of intended insertion depth). This is dramatically off and will damage the mouthpiece receiver. A gap of +10mm is enough to cause significant problems with playing the instrument.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  4. #14
    Bach mouthpieces use a Morse taper: 0.05208" (1.322832 mm) rise per inch length.

    Conn Remington mouthpieces, which were manufactured in Elkhart IN in the 1970's and supplied with Conn 8H, 88H, 60H 62H, 70H-73H and others, use a Brown and Sharpe taper: 0.04167" (1.058418 mm) rise per inch length.

    I played a new 1962 Conn 24i euphonium for 4 years in college. I do not recall the OEM mouthpiece, but my mouthpiece of choice at the time was a Bach 3 with a standard tenor trombone shank. The OEM adapter was the only way a tenor shank would fit and a bass trombone shank would not fit. I also played a Conn 72H bass trombone in H.S. which came with a Remington mouthpiece, my favored mouthpiece, a Bach 1G, large shank, would not fit properly, and wobbled.
    flotrb

    Доверяй, но проверяй
    (Trust, but verify)

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by daruby View Post

    If they truly were trying to make this a large bore tenor (.547) upright valve trombone, then the question is what kind of leadpipe/receiver combination is on the horn.

    Doug
    I am currently waiting on a reply from Jason@Conn-Selmer for a "from the horse's mouth" email.

    My position is this: if the 90G is Conn's competitive presentation of an "upright large-bore valve trombone" special order, it was/is not unlike Conn to use whatever parts were available, coupled with the least amount of re-tooling ($$$). The .547" bore horns at the time were the 8H and 88H, so why re-tool?
    flotrb

    Доверяй, но проверяй
    (Trust, but verify)

  6. If I owned a Conn 90G, I would try one of my bass tromb shank mouthpieces, my 24I adapter, or a tenor shank (already known not to work). If none of those worked, I'd have Doug Elliott make me a Remington (8H) shank for one of my DE mouthpieces. Job done. Since I have more than one of everything except the 8H Remington, it is simple without getting scientific and going all micrometer.
    Sterling Virtuoso 1065HGS & Adams E3 Prototype 0.70 Top Sprung valves
    Sterling Virtuoso 1050HGS baritone
    New England Brass Band
    Winchendon Winds/Townsend Military Band

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by daruby View Post
    ...Since I have more than one of everything except the 8H Remington, it is simple without getting scientific and going all micrometer.
    Now that is THE funniest thing I have heard you say in my years on the Forum! This whole mouthpiece thing can surely give one a headache.
    John Morgan
    The U.S. Army Band (Pershing's Own) 1971-1976
    Adams E3 Custom Series Euphonium, Wessex EP-100 Dolce Euphonium, 1956 B&H Imperial Euphonium
    Adams TB1 Tenor Trombone, Yamaha YBL-822G Bass Trombone
    Wessex TE-360 Bombino Eb Tuba
    Rapid City New Horizons & Municipal Bands (Euphonium)
    Black Hills Symphony Orchestra (Bass Trombone), Powder River Symphony, Gillette, WY (Tenor Trombone)
    Black Hills Brass Quintet (Tuba)

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by flotrb View Post
    My position is this: if the 90G is Conn's competitive presentation of an "upright large-bore valve trombone" special order, it was/is not unlike Conn to use whatever parts were available, coupled with the least amount of re-tooling ($$$). The .547" bore horns at the time were the 8H and 88H, so why re-tool?
    Here's what an 8H leadpipe looks like. That is not an off-the-shelf attachment for the 90G.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  9. #19
    Here is an example from the Conn Gen II catalog describing "trombone lead pipes", "R" for Remington and "M" for Marcellus:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The problem with Conn "Remington" is this: either you have a Remington mouthpiece, which fits, OR you have a Conn adapter that converts a standard tenor shank to a Remington lead pipe. A standard large shank mouthpiece i.e. Bach 1G will not fit...whether you have an adapter or not. The cheapest way out is to have/purchase the proper adapter, such as: http://www.hickeys.com/search.php?q=045889

    No amount of "rigging" with plumber's Teflon tape is going to allow a mouthpiece, with an improper taper, to fit properly without some acoustical problems. You just cannot put 3 oz. of liquid in a 2 oz. cup.

    This is from the Wedge mouthpiece Facebook page:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by flotrb; 11-03-2020 at 11:47 AM.
    flotrb

    Доверяй, но проверяй
    (Trust, but verify)

  10. Sorry to be absent from my inquiry I posted. I have been very busy shingling my barn and my wife Charlotte had knee surgery so I have been doing doubly duty around the house as well as doing the shingling. Along the way I was able to pick up at Home Depot a necessary battery for my measuring calipers. I have a Bach Mouthpiece Manual. At the end, page 32, there are dimensions of Bach mouthpieces. In the opening page of the manual there is this "Vincent Bach was a rare combination of artist and engineer". With that in mind I wanted to use my calipers to do some measurements to help clarify what I was dealing with for myself and others:

    end diameter 1" diameter
    Bach 6 1/2 AL .4250 .4750
    Conn 5 .4705 .5165
    Conn Adapter .4660 .5125
    Al Cass J1 .4365 .4755
    Remington G90 .5120 .5395

    From Bach Mouthpiece Manual

    Model #350 Sm Shank .4220 .4750
    Model #341 LG Shank .4960 .5460

    Opening Receiver

    Conn 25i .5105 1.0575 stop
    Conn 90G .5400 no stop

    Conn 5 length 3.3175
    Bach 6 1/2 w/adapter 3.2725

    So after looking at the data, the Remington mouthpiece that came with the Conn 90G looks very much like the dimensions of a Large shank mouthpiece. I was also curious about the Bach 6 1/2 AL using the Conn adapter vs the Conn 5 that came with my Conn 25i. I was wanting to know if there insertion was the same and would therefore give the same blow. There total length measurement was within .0450" using the Bach with adapter vs Conn 5. I was satisfied that was not enough to matter.

    So I am going to order the Hickey adapter to bring my Al Cass and Bach 6 1/2 AL up to a large shank and see how that goes with my Conn 90G.

    I appreciate all the feedback I have received. Have a good day. Nelson

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