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Thread: Cryogenic treatment of wind instruments

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
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    Cryogenic treatment of wind instruments

    Browsing internet I found this: http://www.icetechonline.com/ice.html
    Does anyone know something or have experienced it?
    From Ice...

    Ice-Tech è un processo criogenico a bassissime temperature in atmosfera controllata, in grado di conferire agli strumenti musicali (di varie leghe metalliche) un miglioramento delle proprietà meccaniche, estendendone le capacità vibratorie. Attraverso questo lento e affascinante trattamento criogenico, controllato da un computer, dopo un'adeguata preparazione, il vostro strumento scende a temperature estreme (- 196°C ca) per essere poi riportato con modalità controllate alla temperatura ambiente.

    Ice-Tech utilizza apparecchiature a microprocessori,in grado di controllare il raffreddamento della camera nella quale viene immesso dell'azoto liquido nebulizzato. Il vostro strumento non entra mai in contatto diretto con il gas.


    ...to passion.

    I miglioramenti del vostro strumento sono immediati, in termini di pulizia e fluidità del suono, di timbrica, di raggiungimento degli armonici, di estensione, di intonazione e di resistenza del metallo. Tutti gli strumenti musicali in fase di costruzione subiscono delle lavorazioni che in modo maggiore o minore ne condizionano le capacità vibratorie.

    Ice-Tech è un trattamento sicuro per eliminare le "zone d'ombra" che anche il miglior strumento può avere, ed eliminando gli "stress molecolari"che ostacolano il propagarsi delle vibrazioni lungo il canneggio, ne libera la voce. Il vostro strumento opporrà meno resistenza nella produzione del suono, e una maggior volontà di vibrare.

    "Suona meglio!"

    Questa sembra essere, in sintesi, la sensazione più diffusa tra coloro che hanno sottoposto il loro strumento al trattamento Ice-Tech. Sono già molti i musicisti, professionisti e non, che in Europa e Stati Uniti hanno potuto sfruttare le potenzialità del loro strumento, grazie alla criogenia. I vantaggi più frequentemente riconosciuti riguardano la produzione del suono che risulta molto più immediata e fluida, la ricchezza di armonici (più energia dedicata al suono e meno per aggirare gli "ostacoli"), la maggior facilità nell'ottenere suoni dolci e staccare piano le note o generare note estreme del registro grave e di quello acuto e sovracuto. Lo strumento è più controllabile nell'intonazione perché più sensibile alle variazioni.


    Senza rischi.

    Prima del trattamento ogni strumento viene controllato e valutate le sue condizioni generali. Se non ci sono situazioni preesistenti di distacco di sugheri o cuscinetti, i rischi sono nulli. Il trattamento, che dura dalle 36 alle 48 ore, non ha incompatibilità con la laccatura degli strumenti, né con le placcature in argento e oro e non presenta nessun rischio di rotture di tipo meccanico (chiavi, camini, pompe,cilindri, ecc..) e nessuna modifica dimensionale.

    Certo, la criogenia non può trasformare uno strumento di scarsa qualità in uno di qualità elevata o risolvere problemi di intonazione dovuti ad una insufficiente manutenzione. Non può correggere la collocazione errata dei fori o la regolazione delle meccaniche...di sicuro, però, può "togliere tutte le ragnatele".



    Ice-Tech: Bassissime temperature per altissime prestazioni
    Last edited by franz; 09-03-2020 at 08:42 AM.
    2007 Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone, 4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; 1973 Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  2. #2
    I see that Steven Mead asked about the cryogenic process on his Facebook page - must be a "hot" topic right now!

    It is not a new topic, although I have not personally talked to a musician who has used a service like this. The theory is logical enough. We know that heat treatment can affect how metal performs, so perhaps sub-zero temperatures can also have an effect. My slant on the topic goes something like this. Brass instruments, especially those with valves, are fairly complex, with a lot of joints and a lot of bent tubing. Once a tube is bent, is it now in its permanent "comfortable" shape, or will it "relax" the shape a bit over time and change the angle? If it is soldered in place, the shape can't change, but if it wants to un-bend it may create stress in the structure. Such stress adds characteristics to a horn, which can be good or bad I suppose. If cryogenic treatment can rearrange the molecules so the tubes accept their new shapes with no stress, that could change how the horn vibrates and therefore change how it responds to playing.

    This next part is only my inference, and I've not heard anyone express it before. Maybe it's silly, but...
    Many brass players have experienced that an instrument gets better over time. I have certainly experienced that, starting in college. Especially while working with Sterling in the early years, I played a lot of horns. Each time Sterling made some changes to the design or materials, they would send me the new one and I'd return the one I had been playing for several months (all via Custom Music in those days). I'd usually like something better about the new one, but it did not feel comfortable to me, even though it was mostly the same design. But after I got used to it, everything was fine. It's much the same today. When I go to an ITEC or similar event where Adams is displaying, the horns I pick up to play don't feel as comfortable as my own Adams. So, why is that? Harold Brasch believed it was because the inside of the tubing got coated over time. He ever suggested pouring milk through a new horn and not cleaning it out for a while (ick!), which was supposed to help it feel more broken-in. Maybe there was some truth there (although my own horns always seem to play better after a thorough cleaning). Perhaps a broken-in horn truly improves because after time passes, after the horn vibrates to your playing over countless notes, and maybe after it sits in a hot car in the summer and a sub-zero car in the winter (at least where I live), some molecule rearranging happens naturally.

    I can see where a cryogenic treatment might help make the horn more comfortable. On the other hand, the end result may not be as desirable for a given horn/player.
    Last edited by davewerden; 09-03-2020 at 09:14 AM.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
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  3. #3
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    Several of us in the Indianapolis Brass Choir tried it many (20?) years ago with very little effect.

    I did it on the Yamaha 641 I owned at the time and found little or no change.

    Normally a skeptic, the main reasons I did it were 1.) because somebody else in the IBC did, and
    2.) because the place I had it done was 3/4 of the way to my in-laws' home in Illinois, so I could drop
    it off on the way to visit them and pick it up on the way home, and 3.) The price was not totally off-putting.

    The older I become, the less skeptical I become of these things (EXCEPT LeFreques!).

    My two indulgences these days are euphoniums/related items and amateur radio gear.
    Last edited by Snorlax; 09-03-2020 at 09:54 AM.
    Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meter CW)
    Formerly Principal Euphonium in a whole
    bunch of groups, now just a schlub.
    Shires Q41, Yamaha 321, 621 Baritone
    Wick 4AL, Wessex 4Y, or whatever I grab.
    Conn 50H trombone, Blue P-bone
    www.soundcloud.com/jweuph

  4. #4
    This was all the fad in the 1990s. I never had it done to any of my instruments but I know many other players who did and swore they could feel a difference.

    Once while I was up picking out trombones, Shires was talking about sending some bells to be treated. I asked about it and they said it usually does nothing but sometimes with bells that aren't made quite as well it can improve them.
    --
    Barry

  5. #5
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    Varese,Italy
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    LefreQue, maxi clappers, cryogenic treatment.......I think it is better to concentrate on the sound we want to obtain from the instrument rather than relying on external accessories whose usefulness is at least doubtful. Last week I gave my euphonium a wash, then I removed the lefreque plates that had long been attached to the instrument with electrician ties: it seems to my ear that it sounds better now!
    2007 Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone, 4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; 1973 Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  6. #6
    Pretty much anything can have some amount of effect on a brass instrument. How much? Heck if I know. My school band director, who was and still remains a professional Trumpet player, had a horn cryo treated and swore that it was an improvement. The Trumpet he had at the time was some completely unlacquered thing with .470" or something bore. Pretty sure he's parted with that horn and yet another since then, and I'm not sure he ever had any further horns treated. His current Trumpet is a custom Harrelson that bears no resemblance to what he was rocking back then. So basically, freezing your horn might make it better, but it won't make it unbeatable.
    Hobbyist. Collector. Oval rotary guy. Unpaid shill for Josef Klier mouthpieces.

  7. #7
    It's quite easy for me, as a hobbyist to fall into this trap of wanting all of these accessories that may just slightly help me to play better. Thankfully been focusing more on practicing better instead of drooling over accessories. Only one I have is a heavy bottom cap, which I like and would keep it.
    "Never over complicate things. Accept "bad" days. Always enjoy yourself when playing, love the sound we can make on our instruments (because that's why we all started playing the Euph)"

    Euph: Yamaha 642II Neo - 千歌音
    Mouthpiece: K&G 4D, Denis Wick 5AL

    https://soundcloud.com/ashsparkle_chika
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  8. #8
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    Hi everyone, I'm bringing this topic up again after it's been a while since I've heard of it. Browsing the web, I came across a company that does metal treatments, including cryogenic. I inquired and, since it is located a few km from my home and the price of the treatment is all in all low (about the price for the purchase of a mouthpiece), I thought of doing the treatment on my Prestige and on the French tuba . Not that I expected much but, given the various positive comments from various musicians who have benefited from this ( read here https://cooltech.at/tieftemperaturbe...nstrumenten-2/) and since there are no contraindications, I took the step. What I can say about the result is that the instruments sound better, the tone is more open with better projection, easier to attack pianissimo notes and they sound more open in the compensating bass register. Not much difference, but significant. Now this might just be in my head (placebo effect), as I have no objective evidence, but this is. We'll see in a couple of weeks when rehearsals with the bands resume if someone will notice something different in the sound of my instruments.
    Last edited by franz; 02-18-2023 at 04:05 AM.
    2007 Besson Prestige 2052, 3D+ K&G mouthpiece; JP373 baritone, 4B modified K&G mouthpiece; Bach 42GO trombone, T4C K&G mouthpiece; 1973 Besson New Standard 3 compensated valves, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece; Wessex French C tuba, 3D+ K&G modified mouthpiece.

  9. #9
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    Valley City, North Dakota, USA
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    So, does this “harden” the metal? (Only thing I can think that it would do.) Might not be such a good idea if you’ve got a softer brass or silver bell for the specific properties those bring to the table.
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    Larry Herzog Jr.

    All things EUPHONIUM! Guilded server

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
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    Farmington Hills, MI
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    I’m way to cynical to trust something like this with my very expensive instrument. Besides, I am satisfied with my horn’s current performance.

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