HBC Impressions

[davewerden]

I just began testing the medium and large HBC caps on my Adams. I'll save my own impressions for a bit (and I'm still fussing around with things), but here is a video where I did a comparison back-to-back with the Adams standard 4th cap, the HBC medium cap, and the HBC heavy cap.

Of course the sound output is not the only relevant factor; the "feel" is also involved. And even with sound, when I record in the basement I have to use close-mic'ing. Normally when doing that I add some reverb, but this recording is untouched. So you are hearing what comes off the bell, but you might hear a different effect in a large room. (No large room is available to me right now.) Nevertheless I think you may hear a difference, and that difference seems to match what I hear from behind the mouthpiece.

See what you think, and please comment!

https://youtu.be/LNVoANFHuHc

[RickF]

Nice comparisons. I can definitely hear more sound - or more presence of sound with the heavy cap. Any difference between the medium heavy and heavy is very subtle to my ear.

[longhornpatino]

Excellent video, thank you. The difference between standard and heavy HBC blows my mind a bit. To my ear, through very decent loudspeakers, your sound with the heavy HBC sounds rich and more focused into the forefront of where I perceive the sound to exist. The sound with the standard cap is a bit more dispersed. I can almost equate the effect of the heavy HBC to bringing a pair of speakers into proper phase with each other and the sound that results. As Rick stated, it affects the presence of sound, and for me, spatially translocates it to a sweet spot in my audio field.

[dsurkin]

If I understand this correctly, you install one HBC on your fourth valve and it affects the entire range of the horn, even when not using the fourth valve?

[John Morgan]

I can definitely hear a distinct difference between the standard cap and both of the heavy caps in Dave's videos. The full sized heavy cap delivers a more robust sound, yet at the same time, a "cleaner" sound. More presence, more fullness. That is not to say that the standard cap is somehow lacking or doesn't sound good, it just does not have quite the body of the bigger caps. I hear the difference with the 1/2 heavy cap, but to a lesser degree. These changes might appear somewhat subtle to the casual listener, but to me, they are clearly evident.

I just got through testing and evaluating a heavy cap and 1/2 heavy cap, compliments of Doug Ruby. I quickly gravitated to the full sized heavy cap and used it for two weeks, playing an hour or two each day. I must admit that I was pretty much a non-believer and skeptic in these heavy bottom caps prior to trying them. No more, I like the heavy cap and the difference it makes on my horn with me playing it. Besides the differences that one hears, there is also a difference in the general feel of playing and the resonance in the horn, both "improved" with the use of the heavy cap. I can't confirm for sure that the heavy cap was the reason, but I believe the heavy cap gave me a better outcome when playing in the extremely high range (let's call that the notes above high Bb, say up to high F). I can generally play up to F above high Bb, but many times the note is not as solid, full, etc. as I would like. I was able to play these notes with significantly more fullness of tone and stability using the heavy cap. I have no idea scientifically why this may be possible, but nonetheless, that is what I noticed, and I tested and tried high range playing many times while using the heavy bottom cap.

I will be getting my own heavy bottom cap.

[daruby]

Dean,

On a compensating euphonium, air flow passes through the 4th valve casing whether you use it or not. If you push down the 4th valve, it passes through twice. The theory is that the large weight at the end of the 4th valve lowers the harmonic frequency at which it will resonate, thus stabilizing the response of the horn.

Doug

[davewerden]

Another point about a heavy 4th cap: that valve casing is not as well braced as 1-2-3 because the first 3 have more ports in & out. So I figured the heavy cap helps stabilize that 4th valve kinda hanging out on its own. (Only my theory - I have never heard a complete explanation.)

Anyway, since all air passes through the 4th valve, as Doug said, it seems likely it could affect the entire range. When designing the Hirsbrunner prototype euphonium it was discovered that the pipe from the 1-2-3 group to the 4th valve is a fairly critical piece. They changed the curve of that one piece and found an improvement overall. So it stands to reason (again, in my own mind) that a 4th valve casing that sorta "flops around" could also affect many things.

Also of note, the HBC folks say that using their product on only the 'last' valve is best (so, 3 on a 3-valve and 4 on a 4-valve horn). Adding more weights to the other valves has either a diminished effect or can actually be counter-productive.

[DaveBj]

Stupid question -- are the threads on all euphoniums identically pitched, or does the manufacturer have to make different HBCs for different brands?

[daruby]

Stupid question -- are the threads on all euphoniums identically pitched, or does the manufacturer have to make different HBCs for different brands?

Dave, good question. Threads are different based on brand and when the horn was built. Older English Besson are not the same as newer Besson. Older Sterling, Willson, Adams, and probably Hirschbrunner are the same because they are all based on the Bauerfeind valveset that they all used at one time. Newer Sterling used a different valveset and I do not know if the thread and diameter are the same. I also suspect that Yamaha is different from all of the above. The folks at HBC can give advice, I am sure.

Doug

[davewerden]

As of right now, here is my valve cap arsenal:



For today's practice I'm using the medium HBC cap. I'm trying to decide if I lose a little responsiveness as I add the heavier cap(s). It would seem logical, but I suppose an argument could be made on the other side. Anyway, that is not something I can record to assess later!

[daruby]

Dave Weden

Noticing that the weight/size of the full size HBC is quite a bit more than the Sterling heavy cap, I just put a message into Chris to see if I could get an Adams/Sterling HBC and insert in gold plate. This would match either of my horns and be an interesting experiment for me. Right now I am using the Sterling 1/2 weight on my Sterling and the Sterling full weight on my Adams.

Doug

[ChristianeSparkle]

I can confirm that Yamaha (at least the 642 Neo) has the same thread as a Sterling Virtuoso. Me and my section mate swapped 4th valve caps a few weeks ago, as he let me test out the Sterling heavy cap.

Dave, good question. Threads are different based on brand and when the horn was built. Older English Besson are not the same as newer Besson. Older Sterling, Willson, Adams, and probably Hirschbrunner are the same because they are all based on the Bauerfeind valveset that they all used at one time. Newer Sterling used a different valveset and I do not know if the thread and diameter are the same. I also suspect that Yamaha is different from all of the above. The folks at HBC can give advice, I am sure.

Doug

[dsurkin]

Dean,

On a compensating euphonium, air flow passes through the 4th valve casing whether you use it or not. If you push down the 4th valve, it passes through twice. The theory is that the large weight at the end of the 4th valve lowers the harmonic frequency at which it will resonate, thus stabilizing the response of the horn.

Doug

Thank you, Doug. Makes sense to the junior-boy scientist in me.

[Chris Waters]

Hello from us at HBC here in Blighty!

As players and as engineers, it's been rivetingly interesting over the years to measure the threads for all the Euphoniums we make 4th HBCs for. To calculate the thread for each instrument, we measured the thread pitch, real pitch, crest flat, crest radius maximum, root radius, thread depth, flank length, major diameter, minor diameter and pitch diameter. The final calculation involves modifying those dimensions to cater for the 24 microns (μm) of silver plate we apply to each 4th HBC and from this, the thread can be cut and HBCs electro-plated. 1 mincon = 0.001 mm or in Imperial 0.00003937". God bless the Zeus Engineering Handbook - invaluable!

There are currently eleven Euphonium Brands that we make 4th HBCs for, with these Brands being sub-divided into various Models of Adams, Besson, Boosey & Co., Boosey & Hawkes, Geneva, Hirsbrunner, John Packer, Sterling, Wessex, Willson and Yamaha. Within the Brands/Models there are also sub-divisions of thread size; for example there are no less than three different threads for the current Besson range, with the Prestige 2051 being different to the Prestige 2052. Equally so the Yamaha Professional and Neo Models have a different thread to the Custom.

There's no surprise of course that most Chinese manufacturers like Jinbao copied the Bauerfeind valve group dimensions for Euphoniums and other brass instruments, as evidenced through our thread measuring of their instruments.

An astonishing find was that from 1923 to 1994+, the Boosey & Co/Boosey & Hawkes 4th Euphonium thread remained the same! We measured a Boosey & Co Class A Solbron Imperial Euphonium serial number 112137 made in November 1923 and not only was it the same as a 1982 Boosey & Hawkes "Round Stamp Globe" Sovereign but as a 1994 Edgware production Besson Sovereign too! Obviously in 1923 it was an Imperial thread and the same dimensions used through to 1994/possibly a bit beyond (sensible engineering). ISO metric threads then took-over with German production of Besson.

We also make 3rd HBCs for Sopranos, Cornets, Flugel Horns (3rd & 4th) and Tenor Horns, varyingly for Adams, Bach, B&S, Besson, Boosey & Hawkes, Couesnon, Courtois, Eclipse, Geneva, John Packer, Schilke, Sterling, Stomvi, Taylor and Yamaha. 'twas the same calculation process for each, so we now have a very detailed database of virtually all casing/bottom cap thread dimensions. It's taken years, but has been and continues to be great fun and we feel we're helping fellow brass musicians worldwide. High quality and good customer service are our cornerstones. It won't make us rich and that's not the object of the exercise, but we're helping - and that's the object of the exercise.

In development are HBCs for Baritones (a REAL challenge due to the minimal gap between the lower face of the standard bottom cap and the pipework) and for Tubas.

Hope all this helps.

[DaveBj]

Hello from us at HBC here in Blighty!

This forum needs a *like* button.

D