Dry Valve Issue

[Euph2015]

If there is a post that addresses dry valves please do point me toward it.

The issues is when I do not play every day the 1st valve becomes dry.
I re-apply Blue Juice it is fine. Other valves seem to work OK.
Time period of not playing is one day. Typically skip practicing on Sunday.
Live on the Texas Gulf Coast so humidity is sometimes an issue.
When I am through practicing I pull all the slides and shake the condensation out.
Store the horn in the case and set the case so the bell is pointed down.
Inspection of the valve, valve casing, bottom cap, and slides do not show any kind of build up.

This issue is with an old Jupiter JEP-470.

Don't know if I am making a basic care mistake or what.

Your comments are welcome.

Art M.

[bbocaner]

One of the things that can cause valves to dry out very quickly is a large amount of mineral scale on the piston. When's the last time you had a chemical cleaning done?

[Richard III]

Usual reason is it needs a thorough cleaning.

[davewerden]

Barry's suggestion is a good one, but I'd like to eliminate a couple basic possibilities.

1. When you say #1 is dry, do you mean it feels dry when you remove it and touch the piston, or do you mean it is not moving smoothly?

2. When you say you store it with the bell pointing down, do you mean the orientation is horizontal with the bell side down and the mouthpiece side up? Or do you mean it is oriented vertically with the bell pointing down?

[daruby]

I have had the exact same issue as you for years on a number of different horns. The issues is that the 1st valve gets the most moisture and debris build up since it is the 1st in the airstream. This both washes out the Blue Juiice quicker and also builds up a lime/calcium deposit quicker which makes the valve feel dry and sticky when the valve oil gets thin.

1. The horn should NOT be stored "on the bell" with the bell pointing down. This causes all the bad stuff to drain back into the valves. Ideal is store the horn on a euphonium stand with bell point straight up. Even sideways in the case is not ideal, but if you do store in the case, have the leadpipe and bell up and 3rd valve down. The least amount of goup will collect in the 1st valve this way.

2. Take the 1st valve out (and spring and bottom cap) and "snake" the leadpipe from the inside (valve) toward the receiver. I use a brass-saver swab for this. This removes crud from the leadpipe which often is the most common source of goup.

3. I not only clean my 1st valve more frequently, but every once in while (2 months or so) I use a very fine silver polish (Wrights Silver Cream) to LIGHTLY polish and remove the built up lime scale on the surface of the valve. This is the most common reason for the "dryness" that you experience. Wash the valve off thoroughly after this!!!

4. Blue Juice will wash out quite quickly in the 1st valve (which gets the most direct moisture). Occasionally (once every 1-2 weeks) I use a valve oil that leaves more residue on the valve such as Hetman #1 when I put the horn away. This doesn't dry out the way Blue Juice does. Then I use Blue Juice thereafter to get the slick smooth action i like.

[Euph2015]

It feels dry to the touch and is slow come back to the top.
Oriented vertically with the bell pointed down.

[Euph2015]

Thank you I will follow the advice.
For what it is worth I put new piston in (lapped ect) and had the same issue. Put the old piston back in.
Your description of cleaning makes it very clear I should be doing it as you stated.

[Euph2015]

I think a chemical cleaning was last done in 1025 (ouch).

[Euph2015]

Thank You everyone for the assistance.
I now know what I need to do to correct my issue.

[davewerden]

3. ...every once in while (2 months or so) I use a very fine silver polish (Wrights Silver Cream) to LIGHTLY polish and remove the built up lime scale on the surface of the valve. This is the most common reason for the "dryness" that you experience. Wash the valve off thoroughly after this!!!

I also have to thank Doug for mentioning this. I've done this now and then and have known about for decades. However, I just cleaned my horn a couple weeks ago because I had valve sluggishness (and the horn was well ready for a cleaning in general!). But the valve problems only got slightly better. I was all set to take all my gear outside and go through it all again when I saw Doug's item #3. That kicked my brain in gear, which it has not been since the shutdown began. Guess what! The polishing fixed the problem!

FWIW I used this polish, which is gentle enough to not damage the valve surface:

https://www.amazon.com/Flitz-Plastic.../dp/B000MUSOW4

There are also some stainless steel cleaners on the market, but I'm afraid of those. I'm not sure they don't contain chemicals that could be hard on the brass passages within the piston or might transfer to the brass casing. The Flitz seems pretty safe, as long as you clean the valve with soap and water when you have polished the surface.

[daruby]

Dave,

I learned the polishing trick from my Dad, a Univ. of Michigan grad and HS and Middle School band director for almost 40 years. Every horn I have ever played or owned since high school has had piston valves cleaned once or twice a year to get the scale off.

Doug

[daruby]

Oriented vertically with the bell pointed down.

Worst way to store a horn. All the water and crud in the slides and at the bottom of each piston will slide back into the part of the valve where the piston wants to rub against the valve body. Think of your car engine running with pistons going up and down, lubricated by filtered oil. All of the combustion byproducts and dirt gets washed out of the engine and washed into the crankcase before it is then pumped through the oil filter and recirculated back through the engine. If your car worked like you describe storing your horn, the engine would turn upside down when you park the car and all of the dirty oil would drain back into each cylinder. All of the gunk and crud accumulated in the bottom of the oil pan would be allowed to contaminate the rubbing surface of each piston and its rings. Yuck!

If you store the horn in the case, put it in the case and store it in the horizontal with the bell and receiver "up". This is the natural position of almost all upright euphonium cases. Never put your horn on its bell if you can help it. Makes it easier to damage the bell and re-contaminate the pistons. If you have a euphonium stand in your home, storing the horn upright, out of the case, on the stand until you need to transport it is the best bet.

Doug

P.S. I have two euphonium stands, one for each horn. I store the horns on the stands in my practice room with towels in the bell to keep dust and random other things out. I use gig bags for both horns and always lay the horn on its side when I put it down at a rehearsal. Usually in the case on a secure surface.

[davewerden]

I'll just reinforce what Doug said - the bottoms-up position for the valves is a very bad idea!

Here is my review of the stand I use. Very convenient and secure once it is adjusted, and it won't interfere with triggers, hand straps, etc.

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.p...uphonium-Stand