Triple Tonguing and Rapid Slurring

[John Morgan]

I try to find interesting ways to practice, ways that keep me engaged and improving on various facets of my playing. I got fairly good at double and triple tonguing early on in my euphonium playing, but I struggled to be able to slur rapidly and cleanly between notes of the same valve fingering, i.e., starting on a tuning concert Bb on the top of the staff to a concert D above that. Then going up to the B natural and slurring up to the concert D with valve combo 1&2. Then going up to concert C and slurring up to concert Eb with the valve combo 1. And so on.

So, I started to practice the slurs as triplet patterns, like this: Bb-D-Bb, D-Bb-D, Bb-D-Bb, D-Bb-D and so on. I would start slowly and put emphasis on the first note of each triplet figure, so I would emphasize Bb and then play the next two notes, then emphasize E and play the next two notes, and so on. I found that I could get the slur better this way, rather than just going from Bb to D then Bb then D in a kind of "two note" at a time approach. And when I was able to speed up the triplet pattern, it would sound just like an ordinary slur between two notes without the triplet emphasis. I got pretty fast at this.

So in my never ending search to find new ideas and ways to practice, I started putting the triple tonguing together with the slurring and found a pretty neat and fun way to work on both. I start at a relatively normal triple tonguing speed, following that with the triplet feel slurring, then as I go up and down chromatically, I speed up each pairing of tonguing and slurring. When my tongue is "on" (i.e., when I don't have any canker sores on my tongue or inside lip!), I can really get sailing. This is a great warmup exercise to see if you can tongue faster or slur faster. I seem to be able to slur whatever speed I can tongue. Not sure the opposite is true. Get good at this and try it when you are warming up before band rehearsal (if we ever have another band rehearsal!), and you will have untold numbers of eyeballs heading your way. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing, mostly good probably. I actually warmup in a corner away from the crowd, it is "my time".

Here is a brief sample: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_2Su9hjibk

Edit: Yikes, I had written the wrong notes in the first and second paragraph. I meant slurring from open Bb to "D", not "E". That must not have made a bit of sense before. I corrected it today, 10/2/2020.

[Big Ian]

That’s an interesting technique John. What do you consider a normal triple tongue speed? I can just about keep up to 170 crotchets per minute, but I think that’s pretty slow. I think Arban asks for 240. I’ve been playing about with a sort of flutter tongue thing where I set my tongue and pass air over it, almost like rolling an ‘r’; this I can do quite quickly but I don’t know if it’s an accepted technique, and worth developing? I really can’t see how players can ta-ka-ta at the sort of speeds they appear to do, e.g. Dave Werden on ‘the Devil’s Tongue’, which I think is impossible and must have some supernatural assistance. P.s. I ta-ka-ta rather than ta-ta-ka, as I end up ‘William Telling’ with ta-ta-ka.

[davewerden]

...What do you consider a normal triple tongue speed? I can just about keep up to 170 crotchets per minute, but I think that’s pretty slow. I think Arban asks for 240...

FWIW, Harold Brasch was usually around quarter note = 112 when he got going. That's about where I get in live performance, but I'm often slower in practice without the aid of adrenalin. Herbert L. Clarke could get to around 136 on cornet. Because of our octave difference and the bore difference, I'm not sure if a euphonium can do 136 with any clarity (I can't). I think if I worked on my British-style baritone I could go a bit quicker than on euphonium because of the smaller bore, but would almost certainly cap out around 120.

[John Morgan]

That’s an interesting technique John. What do you consider a normal triple tongue speed? I can just about keep up to 170 crotchets per minute, but I think that’s pretty slow. I think Arban asks for 240. I’ve been playing about with a sort of flutter tongue thing where I set my tongue and pass air over it, almost like rolling an ‘r’; this I can do quite quickly but I don’t know if it’s an accepted technique, and worth developing? I really can’t see how players can ta-ka-ta at the sort of speeds they appear to do, e.g. Dave Werden on ‘the Devil’s Tongue’, which I think is impossible and must have some supernatural assistance. P.s. I ta-ka-ta rather than ta-ta-ka, as I end up ‘William Telling’ with ta-ta-ka.

So, your message along with Dave's message below it might confuse some readers. If I understand it, Big Ian, you say you can triple tongue at quarter note = 170. That would be 3 notes (triplets) being played per beat at 170. And you say Arban asks for 240. Then Dave is talking about 112 and 120 speeds. [I think Dave meant slower at home "without" the aid of adrenalin. I know what he means there.]

It seems we have apples and bananas here. Playing triplets (triple tonguing) at quarter note = 170 is not very fast for triple tonguing, IMHO. But speed is all relevant to what it is you need it for. The speeds Dave refers to, and mind you I am only trying to interpret what Dave meant, the speeds at 112 and 120, I think are the tempos in Devil's Tongue where each beat represents "two" triplet figures, so 6 notes per beat. "tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku"

I tried to find Dave playing Devil's Tongue and had no luck. Mark Glover plays it on YouTube at close to 120. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbdgsu2g8DU

That is certainly a pretty decent clip. I am sort of with Dave on speed. I can triple tongue at 240 (3 notes per beat), but I would have to really be on to play Devil's Tongue at quarter note = 120 (6 notes per beat). I played Devil's Tongue with a local New Horizons Band a couple or three years ago, and some days it was faster than others. If I really lay off double and triple tonguing for a long period, it takes a few practice sessions to get back really quick speed. I am playing La Mandolinata right now (at least I was last March when everything ground to a halt), and it has triple tonguing in it. I need to be doing that frequently to keep sharp and up to speed on it. Like everything, practice has its rewards for those who are diligent.

As far as the flutter tongue thing for triple tonguing, I don't know if I would invest much time with that. I think the traditional method of triple tonguing (with ta-ta-ka being more widely used than ta-ka-ta, I am pretty sure) would be a better thing to focus on.

[davewerden]

For the record, I've never performed Devil's Tongue. I have used triple tonguing in Arban's Carnival of Venice, Concert Polka (Jenny Wren), Hailstorm, Last Rose of Summer, Facilita, and probably some others I've forgotten. Devil's Tongue will probably happen someday.

[Big Ian]

Thanks for your replies gents. I was mistaken about seeing Dave on YouTube playing the Devil’s Tongue, (I’ve definitely seen the Mark Glover clip though), sorry about that. As far as speed is concerned, 120 in The Devil’s Tongue seems to be equivalent to Arban’s 240. I suppose the basic unit would be notes per minute, in this case (240 x 3 =) 720 npm; my fastest is (170 x 3 =) 510 npm, which as John rightly says is slow. The audience would be nodding (off to sleep, not in appreciation).
My problem is that I’ve set a target of playing Hartmann’s Rule Britannia by the end of the year. I’m ok up to the last variation (with a lot of polishing). I triple tongue the first variation at about 480 npm, the brillante I double tongue at about 560 npm, but the last variation is ponderous. Hence my search for a ‘quick fix’!
I’ll keep pushing the triple tongue technique as you suggest John, but I may just try a bit more flap tonguing just to see what happens!
P.S. I learned to play baritone then euphonium with the Salvation Army, starting when I was about seven, then went on to trombone and french horn at school, quitting when about fifteen, starting up again at the beginning of last year after a forty-odd year break. So, as a returning player, I have to say that I find this forum (and the YouTube clips on technique etc) invaluable. Thanks so much!

[John Morgan]

Triple tonguing at 170, if solidly done with clarity, is certainly a good point from which to build up more speed. My little exercise at the start of this post with triple tonguing and slurring wasn't so much to improve my triple tonguing speed as it was to come up with various and unique ways to practice so that one can stay interested in daily practice. I am frequently trying different approaches, along with some pretty standard and regular approaches, to keep practice interesting.

As for increasing your speed, nothing like good old practice to do that. When I am trying to build up my speed (after having lost a bit from inaction), I most frequently do things like little short bursts of triple tonguing and do it on scales (different scales so I am both practicing tonguing AND staying fresh on scale work). So, I will play two sets of triplets (tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku) followed by a held note. Then go up the scale to the next note and do this at least one octave, sometimes more, then come back down. I find I can do the little short bursts pretty quick. I also vary dynamics from soft to loud. This whole drill gets my tongue going. As I feel more speed and clarity, then I will do something like tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku tu....., tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku tu...., tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku tu-tu-ku tu... then next note up the scale, etc.

I find if my speed has fallen off through lack of practice, I can get it back with a few sessions spread over a period of a few days. If you can do 170 now, you should be able to get it faster just by consistent practice.

Also, try little up and down passages while triple tonguing. Nothing like coordinating your tonguing with your fingers and valve work. That is the real test of steady, clear, precise triple tonguing AND precise and quick fingering when you can do it while moving up and down scales.

[Big Ian]

John, thanks for the advice. I’ve tried the lip slur - triple tongue exercise, which made my chops really ache after five minutes. I’ll definitely keep this one up! As for speed, I’ve tried 180 (540 notes per minute) but fall behind. 240 seems a long long way off, but I’ll keep at it. Many thanks!

[davewerden]

My primary teacher during my masters program told me to keep the tongue motion more forward in my mouth, so it doesn't have to move as far. That allows for faster speed.

[John Morgan]

One more thing if you are really obsessed with getting tonging faster. I first learned to double tongue from a drummer!!! Go figure. He was a friend of mine in 9th grade. He had this silly thing where he would go "du-ga-du-ga-du-ga-du-ga" while shaking his head and letting his cheeks flap for about 10 seconds. And it was really fast. It sounded both ridiculous and funny at the same time. (You would have to be there.) But as silly as it was, I picked up on the "du-ga" part and started to see how fast I could go. Then a light went on, and I tried it on my horn. I had no teachers besides the one person who got me started on trumpet in 5th grade, and I had him for about 6 months. I had heard double tonging and triple tonguing, but just never tried it or quite knew what to do. At the time, my folks were taking us kids to Departmental Auditorium in Washington, D.C. most every week to hear one of the premier service bands play, and they always had soloists who played virtuoso type pieces (much double and triple tonguing). So, in short order I was able to learn how to double, then triple tongue. I also, at the time, when no one was around, would just mouth the double and triple tongue syllables when I felt like it. I got pretty fast at it, and I think it helped with the actual tonguing on the horn. To this day, I find myself sometimes sort of silently saying the syllables as fast as I can. Probably not too silently, as Linda will sometimes ask me if I am feeling okay.

[Big Ian]

That’s really interesting. My ‘flap tongue’ technique comes from emulating the sound of a drum playing a military type tattoo (if that’s the right expression); basically, going trt-trt-trt-trt really fast. I tried it again this aft and can easily get 240 (720 notes per minute), on the Arban exercises. However, it sounds too much like a machine gun going off rather than a musical note so you’re probably right, I should bin the idea.
Regarding tongue position, I use ‘tongue anchoring’. This it totally inadvertent; I noticed that the tip of my tongue naturally rests against the inside of my bottom lip, on all but the lowest notes. I read about tongue anchoring (or anchor tonguing or whatever it’s called) on a trumpet forum - it’s a big discussion topic amongst trumpeters, it seems. I think it’s a misnomer- the tip of the tongue is never ‘anchored’ i.e. immovable, it just finds somewhere to lay up. This does push my tongue forward though so will, I think, help with speed, as Dave suggests. Time will tell.
I too practice saying the triple and double tonguing syllables, usually when driving. And at work. And in the supermarket.
I did hear that a certain American euphonium player was the unknowing founder of the ‘beat box’ phenomenon, anyone else heard this story?