Possible to tune on a concert A?

[Ploppas]

Hi!

I am a trombonist who has bought my first euphonium, and now need your expertise on what's normal on a euphonium. I recently bought a JP274 MKII compensated euphonium. Great instrument with a good sound. The problem is that the 2nd valve is way flat. Concert E (in staff) is lip bendable, but concert A is close to impossible to lip bend. Is this normal, or should I complain? It was shipped from abroad, (I live in Sweden), so I need to know what's expected. The salesman says lip bending is normal, but since this A is closer to a Ab, it is not possible to use the 2nd valve for this.

I'd love to hear if anyone else has had similar problems, if this is a normal thing I need to practice away, or if I should ask for a new horn. This was not the case on the Yamaha euph I played on 15 years ago.

I recorded a video if that would be of any aid.

Thank you for your help!

[Ploppas]

The video is on Google Drive. I don't know if it 's playable on the drive, but it can be downloaded and played.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G-G...w?usp=drivesdk

[davewerden]

Welcome to the forum and to the wonderful world of valves!

Tuning to A is not good for euphonium. Many brands are flat on the A - some by a little and some by a lot. Use Bb to set your main tuning slide.

Most players learn to lip the A when it is a problem. One of my Bessons was flatter than normal on A, so I would play it with 1&3 on sustained notes in ensemble.

There are some handy alternate fingerings for some problem intonation, which I have outlined in this book (along with alternate patterns to use for technical challenges):
https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/searc...n&aff_id=15680

Here is a video I did on tuning a euphonium. Perhaps it will be helpful:

https://youtu.be/t5eXfOZwENU

[franz]

I had intonations problems on the baritone JP373. I solved by shortening all the slides. On my Besson 2052 I shortened the 4th slide to get around the low C# (treble clef) which position 2-4 was very flat.
See in this thread: there are some photos of the work done.
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...tone-to-remove

[Snorlax]

Hi...
You have your tuner set at A442 rather than A440. Is that the custom where you're located?
If 442 is your local standard, then the main tuning slide needs to be moved.
If your tuner is set to 442, any A based on 440 will show flat.
Jim

[ChristianeSparkle]

A442 seems to be fairly standard for concert bands in my region I believe. Now I know it is for Sweden too! First time I was told to start tuning to 440 outside of band was when I started taking lessons (she's a trombonist from America).

For the JP274, I recall it being an issue, had to lip it, but it wasn't too out of the way.

(feel free to ignore this) Would moving your main tuning slide in help without affecting the other notes too much?

Edit: Apologies for such a foolish suggestion. I did not know of such foolishness before this.

[TheJH]

Tuning on anything other than an open note is foolish. Especially since manufacturers do lengthen some valve slides to limit sharpness in 1+2 and 1+3 combination.

[dsurkin]

For your amusement, I've seen a video clip of Mnozil Brass tuning up. Leonard (trombone/bass trumpet) plays the tuning notes, and gives different notes to different instruments. Sorry I can't find the link to that - it's probably a routine included in many of their concert videos.

[Ploppas]

Thank you for all the good responses. A442 is normal in Swedish concert bands, to give that brighter sound. Not the best for my euphonium, but that's how it is.

Thank you Dave for your insights. This JP probably acts like your Besson. I changed mouthpiece to a Schilke 51D and managed to lip bend it. I noticed it was easier to get it in tune while playing a scale upwards. Downwards or sustained, I needed to go with 1+3. I'll probably have to try it in band once again to see if I can manage it with others as well.

And I agree about tuning on the second valve. This was merely a suggestion on what tone to aim for while tuning the second valve. Others have suggested to tune the valve after Concert E (on the staff) or somewhere in between. I was only curious if you should be able to tune a Concert A on the second valve or if the horn is defect. I noticed someone else had a similar issue with the JP274 in another thread on the forum. And franz mentioned shortening the 2nd valve (or all valves) to help in intonation. That could be an alternative also. But I'm more hopeful now when I've actually hit the A on the tuner once in a while.

[davewerden]

FYI, look at these 2 tuning charts for a Willson and Eastman euphonium. Both are around 15 cents flat on the A:

[ChristianeSparkle]

Thank you for all the good responses. A442 is normal in Swedish concert bands, to give that brighter sound. Not the best for my euphonium, but that's how it is.

Thank you Dave for your insights. This JP probably acts like your Besson. I changed mouthpiece to a Schilke 51D and managed to lip bend it. I noticed it was easier to get it in tune while playing a scale upwards. Downwards or sustained, I needed to go with 1+3. I'll probably have to try it in band once again to see if I can manage it with others as well.

And I agree about tuning on the second valve. This was merely a suggestion on what tone to aim for while tuning the second valve. Others have suggested to tune the valve after Concert E (on the staff) or somewhere in between. I was only curious if you should be able to tune a Concert A on the second valve or if the horn is defect. I noticed someone else had a similar issue with the JP274 in another thread on the forum. And franz mentioned shortening the 2nd valve (or all valves) to help in intonation. That could be an alternative also. But I'm more hopeful now when I've actually hit the A on the tuner once in a while.

Do update us on how it goes! What was the initial mouthpiece you used? I recall I had slightly different results when using DW AL5 and the K&G 4 when it comes to intonation on the JP274.

[Ploppas]

That was an excellent graph, Dave. I'll probably end up studying that one quite intensely, while documenting my horn's sweet and sour spots.

I used the mouthpiece that was included. It was a good mouthpiece for the low register, where my 51D continues to fail me. If I'm on a tubaish part, I'll probably end up using that one. It had a good intonation in the compensated register.

[58mark]

I just got my 274 out, oiled it up and played it. The A os not more than 7-10 flatter than the Bb, which is very normal on any euphonium, and better than most. I can't imagine why it would be so flat for you. Are other 2nd valve notes flat? Is the Bb flat a half step higher?

[Ploppas]

Great to hear. Yes, E and lower A are both flat. There was another person that had a similar issue where it was flatter with 20-30 cents. I think I'm at that range as well. My 1+2 is a bit low as well, but is therefore more in tune on G. D tends to be a little flat as well. The Bb is in tune, tuned with the main tubing.

[58mark]

well if there aren't any notes that use the 2nd valve that are sharp, I guess one option is to shorten the 2nd valve slide a touch. (if you like everything else about the instrument) That would be really weird, because slides don't get randomly longer on the assembly line.