FS: Adams E3 with short throw valves

[miketeachesclass]

For sale:

Adams E3 with custom short throw valve set.

I ordered this horn after speaking with Miel Adams about an issue I was having with my right hand that was preventing me from playing my standard E3. I had previously played the short throw prototype, and based on that instrument, decided to move forward.

Ordered through Austin Custom Brass.

I have subsequently treated the injury and no longer need the ultra short throw valves.

This horn is in excellent condition, includes the Bonna Case, and would cost well over 10k if the custom valve block is still available. This would be great for anyone that has arthritis, tendonitis, or simply wants "turbo mode" on their right hand.

Asking $7,500.

[davewerden]

Ha! I love the "turbo mode" concept! This is a pretty unique offer - I hope it find a good home!

[daruby]

Mike, you sold your standard valve E3 as well. What are you going to do now? AFAIK, you and I have the only short throw ones in the US (perhaps anywhere else as well!)

Doug

[miketeachesclass]

Hi Doug,

I haven’t decided. In the short term, I have a couple horns on loan from friends/colleagues.

Truthfully, if this horn doesn’t sell at the asking price, I’ll likely hang onto it. It’s too unique to let go easily!

Mike

Mike, you sold your standard valve E3 as well. What are you going to do now? AFAIK, you and I have the only short throw ones in the US (perhaps anywhere else as well!)

Doug

[JakeGuilbo]

As the person who bought Mike's other E3 I can definitely say he is a world class seller. The horn shipped on time, with GREAT packaging and survived the cross country trip without a scratch. You will be buying from someone who knows how to pack a horn and that is rare!

[miketeachesclass]

Thanks Jake!

As the person who bought Mike's other E3 I can definitely say he is a world class seller. The horn shipped on time, with GREAT packaging and survived the cross country trip without a scratch. You will be buying from someone who knows how to pack a horn and that is rare!

[miketeachesclass]

Bump!

[tokuno]

AFAIK, you and I have the only short throw ones in the US (perhaps anywhere else as well!)

Doug

Fascinating! It looks like the short throw is achieved by narrowing the offset between valve ports (including reversing the 2nd valve slide).
It seems to me that this would be to a player's advantage.
Other than valve throw, does this affect other playing qualities?
Why isn't it a standard configuration?
Cost?
Reliability?
Ruggedness?

[davewerden]

Fascinating! It looks like the short throw is achieved by narrowing the offset between valve ports (including reversing the 2nd valve slide).
It seems to me that this would be to a player's advantage.
Other than valve throw, does this affect other playing qualities?

The shorter throw is also due to making some of the valve ports oval (so they are not as tall, but still have the same area). In theory this could affect response somewhat. I found that the prototype did not feel quite as free as my standard E3, but it was a small difference. If you were used to a different brand you probably would not be bothered and might still find the Adams to have better response.

[miketeachesclass]

Excellent point, Dave. Playing this horn against the E3 of an identical configuration I owned (with "normal" valves), this horn did feel a bit "tighter" than the standard E3. I realize that is an ambiguous term, but it's all subjective. That said, the tightness can be adjusted somewhat using the AGR. I wouldn't characterize the response of the short throw horn as worse, but I would characterize it as slightly different.

As Dave inducated, if you weren't playing another E3 back to back, you may or may not even notice.

I believe this isn't a standard configuration because there isn't a lot of demand, and the build is somewhat more difficult. To get a definitive answer, you'd have to ask Miel!

I will say again that this horn was an absolute godsend for my injured right hand, and I didn't purchase this simply for "turbo mode", but boy are the valves fast!

The shorter throw is also due to making some of the valve ports oval (so they are not as tall, but still have the same area). In theory this could affect response somewhat. I found that the prototype did not feel quite as free as my standard E3, but it was a small difference. If you were used to a different brand you probably would not be bothered and might still find the Adams to have better response.

[daruby]

I will say that the main advantage of the top sprung, short throw valves is the agility. I am approaching age 70 and have recovered from two broken fingers and three trigger fingers (two of which required surgery) on my right hand 1-2-3 fingers and thumb in just the last 5 years. Thus the light and short action of the valves makes it ideal for me. The light weight of my horn (yellow brass and no trigger) also makes it very comfortable.

In discussions with Miel Adams when I purchased the prototype, the major issue was cost. As a rough number, he threw out an incremental $1000(ish) over the cost of an E3 with the standard Bauerfeind valves. At that time, he had built up 5 sets of these valves, only one of which had made it into a saleable horn. However, these were not just one-off prototypes. Adams invested in the tooling required to make it a production item.

Another disadvantage (to a lesser extent) is a minor change in geometry of the horn overall. The length of the top sprung valves and position of the valve slides requires that the body of the horn be just slightly longer than a standard E3. This affects fitment into the Marcus Bonna case and requires a slight change in the length of the lead pipe vs. the length of the tuning slide loop (required removing 1.5 cm. from each of my tuning legs). All of this would mean it is not a straight plug into existing tooling, I would think.

I also agree with Dave Werden that the oval ports "might" affect the horn in some respect or other, however I have not been able to notice this. The prototype Dave played is (I think) the horn I currently own. It is a .70 yellow brass horn rather than the .60(?) sterling silver that Dave has. The only one that I know of that can comment on the impact of the short action valves on response/tone/intonation and any other playability is Mike Taylor, since at one time, he had two otherwise identical horns.

I hope this helps.

Doug

P.S. Mike, If I could somehow sell mine to buy yours, I would be very interested. But that is whimsical thinking rather than serious.

[John Morgan]

When I played on an Adams with short throw valves at the ITEC at Knoxville in 2016, I am pretty sure that the model of horn with the short valves was an E2. I know Dave spent a fair amount of time at the Adams display, so maybe he can confirm that or not. So, that would seem to make at least three of these short throw valve Adams floating about, assuming that the E2, if I remember right, was sold. I had my E3 to compare the E2 with short valves with, but the E3 wasn't actually with me at the time (traveled to ITEC on my motorcycle). I do remember liking the E2 horn, but it was different from my E3, probably more the horn in total than the valves. I could zoom with those valves which was pretty cool. I wouldn't mind having short valves on my E3, but alas, it is not to be.

Come to think about it, 5 minutes later, maybe it was an E3 with the short valves and I just played the E2 (I am certain I did play an E2, but thought it had the short valves). Dave, set me straight please.

[miketeachesclass]

John,

I’m reasonably confident that the horn you would have seen with short throw valves would have been the E3 Prototype that is now in Doug’s possession. That makes the most sense in the context of when I trialed the prototype and Doug purchased it a few months later.

Mike

When I played on an Adams with short throw valves at the ITEC at Knoxville in 2016, I am pretty sure that the model of horn with the short valves was an E2. I know Dave spent a fair amount of time at the Adams display, so maybe he can confirm that or not. So, that would seem to make at least three of these short throw valve Adams floating about, assuming that the E2, if I remember right, was sold. I had my E3 to compare the E2 with short valves with, but the E3 wasn't actually with me at the time (traveled to ITEC on my motorcycle). I do remember liking the E2 horn, but it was different from my E3, probably more the horn in total than the valves. I could zoom with those valves which was pretty cool. I wouldn't mind having short valves on my E3, but alas, it is not to be.

Come to think about it, 5 minutes later, maybe it was an E3 with the short valves and I just played the E2 (I am certain I did play an E2, but thought it had the short valves). Dave, set me straight please.

[daruby]

I purchased the horn on March 22, 2017 at Austin Custom Brass. The horn had travelled around to conferences and shows for awhile. I selected it because it was the only E3 in stock that sounded better than the modified Sovereign 967 I brought to the Adams Day showing that day. All of the other E3s were .55 or .60 silver plated yellow brass.

So I have owned it almost exactly 3 1/2 years. So, Mike, your assessment sounds about right.

[John Morgan]

Okay, Mike and Doug, I stand corrected, or rather I sit corrected as I type this. So Doug, I blew on your horn, hope you can forgive me!! I tried not to yuck it up too much. But those valves were indeed something special. Kind of like back to playing trumpet with light, short and quick valves.